Hi, I'm new to the forums and have done several searches but haven't been able to come up with information relating to what I need help with. I also find the way the search results come up a bit odd too, page after page of the same post, clearly I'm doing something wrong there too Sorry, but this is a pretty lengthy post as I want to give as much info as I can.

The pup's: Abby - Kelpie - 9 1/2 months - with severe hip dysplasia, well managed with exercise, diet & medication (another story!).
Stella - Kelpie - almost 4 months old.

Yes, cardinal sin, 2 puppies at the same time. In my own defence Abby was my first dog, I had not been near a dog for over 25 years, as my husband is allergic to dogs, but when we had to have our last cat PTS due to an aggressive cancer we decided to get a dog.

My main issue is the barking! It is driving me insane & I'm at my wit's end trying to stop it. My husband and children are now getting annoyed with me because a) I can't stop it & b) 'cause it's driving them nuts too.

I started doing Obedience training with Abby until a friend (a former dressage rider & trainer) noticed that she had an odd gate, I got her hips x-rayed, severe hip dysplasia on both sides, competition Obedience career over in an instant and pain in her future

I was eager to continue with competition Obedience training, so we decided to get another puppy so that I could continue with that one, as I love it SO much. Enter Stella.

Both of my dogs are highly intelligent, active dogs and are a joy to train.

BUT (there's always a but, lol) Abby has always done what I now believe to be fear/aggression barking, maniacal (hackles raised) front fence barking (this fence is wire) at walkers, joggers, bike riders etc (not cars), she also does the same thing at both the side & back fences, this appears to be at things only she can see & hear, there are small gaps between the fence palings, that she can see through. She does not bark on walks. This she has done since she was very small.

Stella has learnt all of these things from Abby and is even worse than Abby. Stella races down the length of the house to madly bark (hackles raised) at things in the parkland across the road that only she can see & hear. Along with all of the same things Abby barks at.

Now this wouldn't be so bad BUT now they both bark constantly in the house too (except when they're sleeping)!

I have both the "8 weeks to 8 months" & "Puppy pack structure" DVD's and I'm instigating the programmes with them. Abby's ex-pen is the front foyer with a baby gate across the door way to the lounge room, Stella has an ex-pen in the lounge room. They can see each other. They are both crate trained and sleep in their crates at night.

I now take them outside individually on long lines, as I can't control both of them at the same time. Which means whoever is inside barks like a crazy dog till I come back.

At the moment sufficient exercise for them is difficult as it is just too hot outside during the day and as I live in a rural area with very little street lighting & no footpaths, dangerous for me (I have arthritis in my knees, which means I walk a little awkwardly) to walk them at night, even with a torch, when it is somewhat cooler. I spend a lot of time walking around the yard with them during the day. I also do obedience training sessions with Stella during the day. I have no idea what sort of “mind” training I can do with Abby anymore due to her hip issues.

This creates more barking, if I’m training Stella, Abby barks constantly for the full 5-10 min’s each session goes for. Stella barks if I do a bit of “fun” training with Abby. If Stella is out of the ex-pen for a while, Abby will bark at the baby gate, which will turn into ferocious growling if I have forgotten to pick a bone or stuffed treat toy she has in there prior to letting Stella out (food aggression ). If I let Abby out Stella will bark inside her ex-pen. If they’re out together then they’ll bark at each other while they play.

When I distract whoever is barking by asking for a behaviour, then mark & reward it, the other one barks because they want a treat too……this only works outside now when I only have one dog

I truly do not know what to do to stop this ANY help would be really appreciated.

I'll start.

Is the Kelpie on an NSAID? Which one? What else? What is the prognosis from the ortho vet?

Why is Abby in the yard alone? Why do you not think territorial since it's all fence-line??

What is occupying Abby while you marker-train Stella? Does she have a special chewie just for this?

This: "Abby will bark at the baby gate, which will turn into ferocious growling if I have forgotten to pick a bone or stuffed treat toy she has in there prior to letting Stella out" ... this is not allowed. No forgetting. Handler error that is 100% avoidable.


Are the training sessions visible and audible to the un-training one?

Who is the worst barker? Abby?

"I have no idea what sort of mind training I can do with Abby anymore due to her hip issues."
What exactly is her comfortable ability? Can she rise from sitting, from lying, without a struggle? Have you consulted about the GAGS injectables?

Have you taught bark and no-bark?

I know these questions are all over the place. It would be good if you could answer them all, though.

Can you brace both knees and use not just a torch but a headlamp on you and lights on both dogs in the evening? Can some one accompany? Is there a level area, but with some "give" for the HD/OA guy?

What training DOES Abby get?




What one-word search term are you using, and for what period of time (in "advanced search" at upper right)?


PS
Welcome!

Hiya, thanks, here goes.

Yes NSAID - Illium Meloxicam. Can't afford to travel to or pay for an ortho' Vet

Abby's never in the yard alone (neither of them are). Abby also has separation anxiety, my fault, but I didn't know any better at the time, I thought I was doing the right thing, taking her everywhere with me, we got her when she was only 5 1/2 weeks old, yes I know NOW that that was wrong but I didn't know then. I think fear aggression as she will immediately stop if the person on the other side of the fence stops & talks to her or pats her? Could be wrong though

I rotate Abby's chew/treat toys, sometimes bones, sometimes a stuffed Kong or a Bob-a-Lot etc while I train Stella. Absolutely agree to the 100% handler error, just thought the extra info' might be helpful. Visable no, audible yes, nothing I can do about that at the moment though as it's too hot to train outside and I don't have any usable shaded areas.

I'm really not sure who the worst barker is anymore. A week or so ago before I started on the 'pack structure' stuff, I would've said Abby, now though, I really don't know.

I think her comfort level is still pretty good. Although she does a truly beautiful tuck sit (I'm guessing because it's easier for her), she does a flop to the right drop, I don't ask her to do that very often though and her stand is a lovely bounce up. I would like to teach her more things but I don't know what or how, all I have is Obedience related stuff. I'm still doing hand touches and spins in both directions and a little bit of platform work 'cause she loves it so much, no more heeling though because she's trained for head height, I don't want to put any stress on her backend with that. She can still jump on the couches & beds, they're all quite low but cannot jump into the rear of the car (I have a station wagon), as this is a fair bit higher than the furniture.

I'm sorry but I don't know what GAGS injectables are, the Vet hasn't mentioned anything other than what he's giving her. I asked about giving her MSM Glucosamine but he said there was no real point as it would only help for a few months. There was no sign of any arthritis in the x-rays yet. Both dogs are on an evolutionary (raw/barf) diet.

I don't know how to teach them the bark/no bark. As I can't work out how to make them bark to mark it. I've watched quite a few YouTube video's on it but all of these people already know how to make their dogs barks or what sets them off, ie, Knock on a wall, riging the doorbell etc. most of the time I haven't got a clue what's setting them off. When they're off on their tirades it takes a fair effort just to get them to hear me enough to get them to perform a behaviour ie a nose touch. Which I then mark & reward, but they'll often just go straight back to barking again. I have to add that I have only been taking them outside on long lines for a few days (since receiving the "pack structure" DVD).

I hadn't thought about putting on my knee braces to walk them D'oh, thanks for the reminder! Head lamp is brilliant! My daughter generally comes with me when I walk them, she normally takes Abby as she pulls like an Ox!

As for the search I used "barking" with a 24 month limit. I also used fear barking & fear bark, then I gave up.

I think I've answered all your questions, any help would be appreciated.

Thanks for the Welcome

I also forgot to add, that Abby will have barking fits if anything changes in her environment, ie moving furniture, adding or taking away furniture, a box etc, anything at all that is not where it should be, new or doesn't belong!

Joscelyn, I hate to do it, but I have a couple more questions, not directly connected to each other.

This barking at passersby .... this happens with you right there?

Do you know what NILIF is?




ETA:

 Quote: Joscelyn Lovett

I also forgot to add, that Abby will have barking fits if anything changes in her environment, ie moving furniture, adding or taking away furniture, a box etc, anything at all that is not where it should be, new or doesn't belong!

What do you do when this happens?

Something is moved or added. Barkety-bark. What is your response?

I'm trying to get a handle on what your relationship is to these dogs.


Edited by Connie Sutherland (02/26/2013 09:43 AM)
Edit reason: eta

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Do you know what NILIF is?

I hate to interrupt, as Connie is doing a wonderful job, and will help you to sort out all of these individual issues. I just wish to highlight the above extremely important statement.

IMHO, from your posts, there seems to be a bit of consistency missing. You clearly are a good trainer, as evidenced by the OB training that you with your first dog. Later, though, you stated that she pulls like an ox while walking. With that level of OB, I would do some leash pressure training with her, and/or put her in a heel until she learned proper strolling etiquette.

IMHO, set yourself as a strong leader, and you will have more success working through your issues. NILIF

also wanted to add that giving the dogs proper exercise will really help with the barking problem.

I know you said it got super hot...but what about early mornings?
Even if it means getting up earlier than you usually have to in order to give the dogs the proper exercise they need.

if you can't exercise them together what about fetch in the backyard with the younger dog till she's tuckered out then bring the older dog out and do some obedience with her. I am not sure how bad the hip displaysia is so I am assuming fetch is out of the question for the older dog? But working a dogs mind is sometimes even more tiring to them than physical exercise.

You need to give the dogs another outlet to burn off the energy.
They have found their own way to do it...running the fence, barking, etc. It's a self taught gratifying behaviour.

I honestly think that exercise and alot of it will help you with what you see happening with the dogs.

Yep, I can be standing right next to her, talking to her, soothing her, trying to stop her from barking at whatever, doesn't work though.

Yep, I know what NILIF is

With environment changes, I generally tell her to stop being a silly girl stand with her & reinforce her while she has a good look & sniff etc.

I have probably been a bit softer on them than I should've been. However, that HAS changed a fair bit, this last week or so.

Duane, I couldn't agree with you more! I can be inconsistent at times, I KNOW I'm doing it, but it's generally when I'm busy, stressed, etc. Again, this has changed the last week or so and I'm really, really working on getting more consistency & routine happening for them. I'm not entirely sure how I've failed that so badly as I was always like that with the kids when they were little!

Abby would've been ready to do her first title this Autumn/Winter. I had started the leash pressure work with her for her heeling and she responded fantastically. I was so PROUD of her. I will have a go at heeling her (when she pulls) when we go for a walk & see what happens.

Thank you.

If you're not strong enough, you can teach your daughter to become a post when Abby starts pulling, and not go until Abby relaxes.