Moved:

 Quote: Jessica Walsh

So I also have an itchy dog problem. Initially, it was actually his flea meds. Took me 6 months to figure out. I skipped a month in April and he started to get better, but he's scratching again and has been for the last month. But it feels different than before. There's a lot more biting with his teeth at his torso, legs and tail. I gave K9 Advantix a couple of weeks ago but not to dog #2 (she'll get the Advantix today actually). I took him to the vet and they're like, "We don't see any fleas." Vet didn't test for flea allergy and said probably seasonal. Ok fine. Been giving Benadryl and it's not helping one whit that I can tell. So, reading this thread and the flea thread referenced earlier, any suggestions? Could it still be fleas? Is there a flea test I can/should demand? I switched to raw two months ago and have seen massive improvement in overall skin and coat. Any suggestions welcome. Starting to up my grizzy salmon oil too.

Oh and to clarify, the flea med my dog had a bad reaction to was Parastar, NOT Advantix.

And I had considered whether or not this was just grooming and the "new normal" but it can't be because he's biting and licking to the extent he's defurring spots and getting little bite lesions.

This is classic flea behavior. The vet staff "not seeing fleas" is irrelevant. If the dog has what it sounds like this dog has, flea saliva hypersensitivity (there are many names for this), then a single exposure is enough to drive him crazy. (And with fleas, there's really no such thing as a single exposure, sadly.)

But rather than reinvent the wheel:

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=29702&page=1

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=33423&page=1#378718


"biting with his teeth at his torso, legs and tail" would make me do the white sheet test today.

Then the baths as described, while a second person is vacuuming and doing everything else described.

"he's biting and licking to the extent he's defurring spots and getting little bite lesions" would make me start today, because he's opening the skin to infection and yeast overgrowth,



"Vet didn't test for flea allergy and said probably seasonal" ... there is no commonly done "test for flea allergy" that would be performed by a GP vet.

The most common allergic dermatitis or skin allergy in dogs is flea saliva hypersensitivity (flea allergy dermatitis, etc., etc.). You're describing the symptoms of biting at fleas, and citing body geography where fleas bite.

How is the area at the base of the tail?

And welcome, by the way!

The reply might seem terse, but it's just "get the info out to this poor owner." We see so many itchy-scratchy posts .... and many of us (probably most of us) have been there and fought the fight and lived to tell about it. In addition, there are several on this board who have spent years researching, and gone through atopy and flea bite hypersensitivity with several (or many) dogs.

Vet dermatology is a huge field. It's a specialty for a reason.


You have my sympathy and understanding, that's for sure!

Thanks Connie. Reply not terse at all. I'll check out the links you sent. I'm still learning how to search all the vast amount of info here.

I rather thought the same thing when they didn't find any fleas at the vet and then also said "but it only takes one". I was like um then what's the point of checking? And then I thought of our almost daily walks on a trail where he DOES gets ticks I see so who knows what else is out there.

Yes, he's chewing/biting/licking at the base of his tail and the rest of it some too.

I will start my own flea war then. Even if it doesn't turn out to be fleas for some reason, the measures can't hurt with summer coming.

"Yes, he's chewing/biting/licking at the base of his tail "


I would put big money on fleas. And I'd give a hundred to one odds . Yes, there may be something else happening, too, like environmental allergies, but you are describing fleas to a "T."


Did you see this thread? (Same poster who started the thread you initially posted on.)

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=33382&page=7


QUOTE (from me, in that thread):
OK, found the flea bath hint in a post from me on another thread:

"A hint about the bath .... fleas tend to be on the body rather than the skull. So at the beginning of the flea-removal bath, you want to apply the shampoo and lather around the neck first, in a wide band completely lathered well into the fur. This helps a lot, IME, to prevent the body fleas from migrating to the face and ears, which are not easy areas to shampoo. (Plus you don't want to introduce moisture to a healthy ear.) Then get the lather all over the body below that band. Then have the dog sit for 5 to 10 minutes lathered up. Tiny high-value treats are a help here, and so are such tricks as "shake paw."

Rinse very very thoroughly. IME, baths are not the drying event that many think (I learned this from the excellent book by Shawn Messonnier http://leerburg.com/971.htm ), but not getting all the shampoo out can indeed by very drying, as can using a shampoo made for humans (very different pH)."

(Ideally, this would be done just before applying the Advantix. If you applied it a few days ago, though, you can still do this bath.)

A dog who is allergic to flea saliva (and this can happen at any age, although usually starting over age 1, commonly at age 3 or so) typically gets worse rather than better. (Flea saliva contains dozens of antigens, from amino acids to polypeptides and many more.)

Any allergy, including flea hypersensitivity, can cause an overgrowth in either normal yeast or normal staph (both present on healthy dogs), or both.

In addition, a dog with flea allergy can suffer from recurring tapeworms (from biting at and swallowing the fleas).

Fleas don't reproduce on the dog, which is why the environment needs to be de-flead while the dog is being bathed. The larvae are not on the dog; they are in his bed, in the carpet, in area rugs, etc. In fact, this is where most of the fleas will be, too. The dog is removing them from his body as fast and as furiously as he can, so even though he is continually being bitten, the biggest population is usually in his living area.

On a dog who is not allergic, the topical is kind of a bait-and-poison. That is, the flea jumps on the dog, bites, and is killed.

When the dog is allergic, though, this isn't good enough. The dog is damaging his protective shield, his skin, and this is where malassezia and/or staph gain a big toe-hold. END

" ..... even though he is continually being bitten, the biggest population is usually in his living area."

This is part of why I consider the vet staff's not seeing fleas irrelevant.

bump

Oye. Well I just sent some pics to a friend much wiser than I and she said fleas, too. I have my work cut out for me for sure. he has new spot today on his back where he defurred it with a bunch of red bumps. And it does seem to be getting worse, not better.

I have some natural flea spray on the way that i saw on another Leerburg thread, both dogs dosed w/ Advantix, will sort out bath time and then I need to find a DE earth supplier. Go Internets....

There was no question in my mind. ( .... "big money and 100 to 1 odds" ..... )

Baths, vacuuming (including the couch, upholstered chairs, dog beds) ..... sadly, there is no way around the "heavy lifting" of flea control. I say this from experience.



".... he has new spot today on his back where he defurred it with a bunch of red bumps ..."

I'd treat such spots with a topical such as Veterycin
( http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=24619 )
immediately to try to stop the dog's scratching. Open skin leads to infection.

But this is only a tiny step .... you have a battle to fight.

You have support and sympathy from here!

It's all here:

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=29702&page=1

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=33423&page=1#378718