Seems like this will be a growing trend of me starting new threads with particular questions - no problem by any means!

This one is called the Rules of using Toys as Rewards, the rules are important because it will slow down, and hinder the training because the value of the reward in my opinion depreciates because it does not increasing the value if that makes sense.

In Michael Ellis' video called Food vs Toy Rewarding Michael explains there are three rules that need to be established.

- The dog must really want the toy.
- The dog must out the toy 100%.
- The dog must retrieve the toy to the handler.


As for deciding when to use either I guess it comes down to knowing your dog, a dog that views a toy too high in value causes a distraction which doesn't allow a dog to work. This particular dog would be better being worked with food.

Please understand these are my views on the videos/dvd's that can all be reviewed here on Leerburg. Links will be provided to particular videos that deal with this topic below.

For discussion as well, my dog views his ChuckIt ball as a high value reward and works exceedingly well for this reward however the retrieval isn't 100%. The out is 97% there, all it takes is one time with the command. I'm not sure if it's because during the training he is checking out? Questions? Comments? Concern?

"Seems like this will be a growing trend of me starting new threads with particular questions - no problem by any means!"

Yes, it makes it much easier both to get responses and to search later if the posts deal mainly with whatever the subject name (the thread's title) is.



"This one is called the Rules of using Toys as Rewards, the rules are important because it will slow down, and hinder the training because the value of the reward in my opinion depreciates because it does not increasing the value if that makes sense."

I'm not clear on what this is saying. Can you rephrase?

First, the toy does not lose value as a reward (unless your presentation is seriously bad). Dogs that are trained consistently throughout their lifetime don't lose drive for their reward, and the focus on it actually continues to improve.

You need more foundation on your recall before proceeding. Rule #3 does not have "most of the time" in it. "The dog MUST retrieve..."

If you're having a problem with your dog's drive being too intense, focus on food for teaching until you learn more about toys. You will eventually learn how to cap his drive and use it. Once you see the results, you will want to build more drive in your dog.

Some of the decision to use food or a toy for a reward can depend on the dog & what you are trying to teach. But I agree 100% with what Duane posted above.

I personally find that for what I call 'stupid pet tricks' I usually use food as a reward. That is also due to the fact that I usually teach these kinds of things in the kitchen on a rainy day. Since I don't allow toys in the house, except with pups, food it is.

Outside I use a tug or a ball on a rope to train with.

Thanks Duane, it's not that the drive is too intense it's that say he performs a desired command, I mark and reward with a ball toss. Axle doesn't always bring that ball back, sometimes he will just plop dome and chews. I think it's because I am rushing the training?

Rule #3... If he doesn't ALWAYS return to engage with you, he is not ready for a ball toss as a reward.

I don't like ball tosses, anyway. Interrupts my instruction. I prefer a tug as a toy reward (except for nosework).

What Duane said!

I've mentioned before that you can't just toss and hope. You need to back chain the retrieve with markers.

I also agree with Duane about using a tug as a reward.

Two reasons

#1 The ball as a reward looses a LOT of time because your hoping he brings it right back. !He WILL NOT DO IT CONSISTENTLY! at this point in his training.

#2 Just as important. With a ball as a reward he now has what he wants. You no longer hold any value.
The tug will build much more bond with you since it's about the game of tug WITH and not just getting what he wants from you. The ball.

You must to be PATIENT and get the retrieve back chained.
Forget the ball until this is solid. Even then my choice is always the interaction with my dog and the tug and not just seeing me as a vending machine. Dog gets what he wants and he's gone!

One of my GSDs has a natural retrieve. For competition all I had to do was formalize it as per competition rules.

My other dog would chase anything but no retrieve what so ever. He'd get to the stick, ball whatever and just walk away.

I back chained his retrieve and he's always trying to shove something into my hands so I will throw it for him.

Thanks Gents. Any video suggestions on properly playing tug with your dog?

This is the most comprehensive video, in terms of all the areas you have questions in...

http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=561

These search results contain lots of free clips that illustrate specific areas. Also, the videos Power of Playing Tug and Advanced Concepts of Motivation go into great detail about the specifics of rewarding with tug.

http://leerburg.com/flix/searchResults.php?searchfor=ellis%20tug

Thanks Duane.