Looked all over and didn't see anywhere for introductions to the group? I also notice that many of the thread traffic is old? Wondering where everyone is at, and if this is an active board or not?

Moving on to the title of the thread, Teaching an old dog new tricks.. The old dog in question would be me.. You see I grew up training dogs from an early age. Started with my first dog at 12 years old. Started professionally straight out of high school in 1980 getting a ticket and taking a greyhound bus to a large training facility in Oakland California called Pro Train. Ate breathed and slept dogs for many years, literally living at the facility to start my career. I can remember when Ed first showed up on the net way back in the Rec.Pet.Group days..

Some of you might remember the good ole wild west days of the internet? You may remember a mailing list sponsored by apple soft, called "Protection-Dogs-L." It was a protection dog mailing list designed to represent responsible protection dog training and the industry.. I ran the board for over five years, then handed it off to someone else I respected in the industry, as I fell on a ruff patch in life.. I drifted away from the industry for quite some time, moving on in life to other ventures that made me way more than I did as a struggling dog trainer back then..

The Malinois I had "Thunder," passed away a few years ago. He was given to me as a throw away from a breeder that used to know Cesar Millan and I pretty well. Cesar and I used to hang out and train together back in the day. I lived at his place on 163rd with the dogs for awhile in fact.. He brought the dog over to my house with his brother "Lightning." Both dogs named by Cesar before he brought them to me..

Thunder adopted me from day one and claimed me as his. I kept Thunder and trained him up as my demo dog, with Cesar doing much of the decoy work at the time. He was a hell of a dog.. And yes for those that don't know it Cesar at one time did quite a lot of protection dog training.. Though our methods and style varied greatly. I think we both taught each other quite a bit, in the three or four years we were hanging together back then.. We had something in common. The love of dogs that we had both began as children..

Since losing Thunder to old age a few years ago. I said I wouldn't get another dog as I didn't have the time and it wouldn't be fair to the animal.. This has since changed and I find myself right now in the market for a well bred working 'male' Mal puppy.

If I can find one that grabs me in the breeding. I'm committed to only getting the best I can find. I thought I had found the one, with a breeding I spotted from Ivan in Florida. Had my deposit down, but it didn't work out.. I was just informed by Ivan that the bitch only dropped three pups and one was stillborn. Needless to say, I'm pretty bummed out right now. I have a kennel being built and was so looking forward to a new puppy in my life.. There is an old saying, "don't count your chickens before they're hatched.." I just learned a big lesson in this respect.

I'm now once again, in the market for the right puppy.. Not finding anything I like so far. Hate to say it, but there's a lot of garbage out there..

Now as to why I popped my head up on this board. For the last couple of weeks I've been lurking and taking it all in, as my premier input as to where the industry is at since I left it, some 15+ years ago maybe more.. If anything Ed's always been a very frank & honest.. And let's not forget outspoken man.. ;-)

With this in mind I have great respect for his viewpoints and attitudes in training, as he's been there and done that.. His willingness to admit that he's made mistakes and grown as a trainer. The attitude that he's always reaching to learn and grow. Any good trainer worth their salt will admit that they never stop learning and growing.

And then there's why I'm here. My outlook at this point in time, is that I know nothing, that I'm an empty vessel wanting to learn and grow with the new methods that seem to be out there today. I'm well entranced and all over this marker training that Ed is so high on right now. I've committed myself to becoming, what I'm finding out is called a "Balanced Dog Trainer."

Using food in the past has never been something I've been against, it was just that we had been taught other ways of doing things to build our communication baseboard up with the animal.. I've always prided myself on my relationship with my dogs and those dogs that I've trained.. There are many little offshoot things I see in this method that dovetail well with where I was at in my training style so many years ago..

At this point in time, I will say I'm going to go into it, as a heavy hobbyist, but who knows where I'll end up. Dog training has been an imprint and love of mine, since early childhood. Kind of hard to shut it out of your life..

In closing I want to say to Ed.. Great job with what you've built up here Ed. Would like to see the board a little more active, but you have a world of content to sift through, so I think I'll be busy awhile.. Need anything give a yell, and I'll come running..

Yours through the screen

Mark Ferrasci

Here's the Bio section you mentioned:

http://leerburg.com/webboard/topiclist.php?forum_id=146



Have you watched any of the Michael Ellis videos online or at home? I think that the marker training Ed is so enthusiastic about "right now" started at least eight years ago here.


Yes, old dogs can learn new tricks.

Thanks Connie, 8 years ago. Shows you how long I've been out of the loop.. Been watching quite a few of Michaels vids on the site, also got the Power Of Training With Food vid.. Gotta love the modern age were you can stream it at your leisure..

Thanks for chiming in.

MF.

Connie said

"Yes, old dogs can learn new tricks".


!!!!TAAA DAAAAAA!!!

The more Ellis clips and DVDs you can watch, the better.



I'm old. I started with the same methods that others of my age group had .... that was what there was.

Most training methods have something to use, IMHO .... or at least something to be warned against.

But marker training, for me, was a ta-da moment, as Bob says.

I'll never train without it again.

IOW, marker training can (and, IMO, should) be part of whatever training you might be doing.

Old, you're only as old as you feel.. ;-)

I started to fade off the playing field, just about when Michael Ellis showed up on the scene. Clicker training had just started to take hold. With the competitive obedience crowd starting to cross over. (No one knew who Cesar Millan was at the time..) It was the Protection Dog folks that were the hold out's. Now I see more and more of them have crossed over and are starting to realize the power of marker training.. Like what I see out there in regards to the bigger picture with styles. Such as Ivans technique's using play and prey drives as his main motivators.. Gives him a good "Out" early on. Which allows him to channel the dogs work ethic towards the reward with play and prey bite work.. Can see the merits of using food to build your communication baseboard to start..

With not being able to stay on my time schedule and get what I wanted right away, with the dog I wanted to start with. I've been thinking I head to the shelters and find a good prospect to train up.. Should be able to find a good home for a well trained dog is what I figure.. Keep looking for what I want for me. Which might take a few months from the look of things. Get something to work with and do my part to save a dog from getting put down in the mean time.. They say practice makes perfect.. will give me a taste and help get me through the learning curves so to speak with some of these technique's I'm not as familiar with.. I'm in for the long haul with what I have to work with, so what the hell, lets see how it goes.. Give me a way of building up relationships with the local shelters and such as well. Kill two birds with one stone..

Just got the, "Thinking Dog: Crossover to Clicker" by Gail Tamases Fisher, last night on my kindle..

Loved how she opened up the book, giving an overview of the history of Dog Training.. Shows you how much content, (back then book writers that were experts in the field.) had on dog training as a whole..

Now it's seminars, along with those that have built themselves as the leading experts in dog training. Michael Ellis etc.. Ed has a pretty big influence with what he's putting together with his group of sponsored trainers he has going on with his videos and online training courses he's putting together as well..

Lot of respect goes to the man because of what he's put together in this respect. One thing's for sure. I would have died to have the resources they do now days as a kid, when I first started out. Those wanting to become a professional dog trainer or even those wanting to get good at training their own personal dog's. Now days there is a world of knowledge right at your fingertips. I would have killed to have this available to me like they do now days. Back then, I had the original Dog Sports Magazine, with Mike McKowen the editor & owner. Folks like David Reavers with Adlerhorst Police K9 Kennels that used to write for the magazine.. Now one of the largest Police K9 trainers in the LA area, right down the way from me.. I would wait for that magazine every month with baited breath.. Now look at us.. As I said, going to be fun to get back into the dogs again, even if it's only as a heavy hobby'st..

Thanks again for chiming in Connie.. Night!

MF.

Not a good example of OLD dogs learning with markers but to show how effective it is.

My 13 yr old grand daughter recently got a Pappillion X Pomeranian pup.
The pup,Pippa, is now 10-11 wks old and she will "happily" sit, down, come, rollover and also barks to be let out.

Proofing yet to come of course!

Gotta work on her nail trimming next. The little shit doesn't like to be put on her back. I love it!

All being done, by my grand daughter under my direction and using my 8yr old GSD as a demo dog.

Mark, you commented about looking back on early training.

You can't imagine how many dogs I've looked back on that brought out the "What if" based on marker training today.

Sounds Awsome Bob.. I think I have more reservations, with having all these ingrained habits that I have formed over the years, more than anything else. I had such an instinct and ability at knowing how to read the animal and deal with the pressure I put on the animal... My system was well ingrained and I prided myself on being able to train any dog. Using what I called the gut feeling of dog training. To have an instinctive feel and ability to bond with the animal and be able to build a relationship with the dog. One of my main specialties was recovering dogs that were screwed up. Shy or fearful dogs, or those that had been improperly imprinted traumatized at a young age. Recovering a dog if you will.. Consistency was the key, it's amazing how much a dog can go through as long as you give him a consistent communication baseboard.. And now I realize that there is no reason to have to put the animal through what we did. If you have other methods that achieve the same thing and or are better with their outcomes why should you..

Though it feels like I'm going to have to start from scratch in many respects. I know much of my ability to read the animal and understand basic conditioning will be there for me as I pull it all together. On the other side of the coin, it's going to be a pain in the ass to work my way through the frustration and patience to get through the learning curve on my part.. To recondition myself.. I'm committed to the journey though and can't wait till I can break it down and start putting the basic pieces together with understanding. Like I had with all those years of CP training that I started with so many years ago..

Kohler's Guard Dog training book, was my first impression and were it all started with me so many years ago.. I was actually training before this but didn't get into protection till I got my first shepherd at 16, used his book to do it all on my own protection training, quite well matter of fact. I think I got it when it first hit the rack.. It's neat to see how far we have come and the evolution of dog training overall, that has brought us to this point though. I love it and can't wait to get started.

Just got Michael Ellis's power of tug and play vid, started watching it tonight. Kind of feel like I knew much of this I already. Used something very similar with my dogs for years. With what I called working the dog to a crescendo. Releasing the dog and ending on a high point, into a release with play, is something I've been doing for years.. Were you work the dog to a certain point and give him a release at just the right point.. A release word is a very important thing.. So many things I was doing way before folks like Michael came along to tell me about them.. Though much of what I'm seeing now has been tweaked to direct it towards higher learning aspects of certain key points in training and routines, that is pretty cool..

This is what I'm grabbing out of a lot of what I've been reading and taking in with the vids so far. Such as the dogs being taught to target the upside down bowl, (Place) to facilitate turning and building proficiency around your pivot point. 'Yourself' in the heal.. Or Michael accenting certain key points of the tug play, so as to incorporate it into a solid reward system.. There are many other finer points in exercises I'm looking forward to playing with, and perfecting with Marker Training. Like the focused heal, as well as slipping in subtle cues to let the dog know you're on the competition field and they need to be precise with their work. Watching some of the old trial footage and then seeing what the dogs are doing now days. The evolution of it all is amazing, says a lot for marker training I think..

Thanks for chiming in Bob, how old is your granddaughter that's working the Papion X Pom mix by the way?

MF.

Me at 21 years old with Sargeant my Shepherd. Started my first dog training business at around 19 years of age, after getting back from Pro Train in Oakland where I lived in the back of the kennel to learn my trade.. Sargeant is my time marker. He was born in 1979. I took off to Pro Train straight out of high school in 1980.

interesting time period you span. you cross the old and the new.

I don't think I would have done well under the old regimes of training.

this new stuff makes perfect sense and is natural to me, the body is going too fast tho to take advantage of what is on offer now.