 How do I start?
#400631 - 04/15/2016 01:16 AM |
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I am new to here to the forum, tho in the past Cindy has helped me with previous dogs (Thank you!)
I have since Feb 29th adopted a " Purchased retired show dog/stud dog in good condition and needing a new home for no cost but for shipping and vetting". I knew he was going to be work, as the Breeder said he was a "only" kennel dog in a foster home, who was making him a house kennel dog, so I expected the worst, but was hoping he would be a walking companion and trainable..he won in the walking companion, is smart, quiet, and was easily housebroken, and very gentle, but skittish. His name is Jazz, and he is 6 years old, maybe 7, they can't decide which, and was sent to me with the warning he had a high prey drive, no training, and had no respect for personal space.
What I have now is a sweet dog who just wants a snuggle, hates his legs touched period (working on that) walks great on leash with zero pulling, is great loose in the house and stays on his beds, and does not chew, jump or make any noise.
But also what I got was a dog who was never fed or watered til after 11pm, to which they admitted after, was never handled (screams if you touch his collar to correct or lead him) does not eat more than 2 cups of food a day, and rarely drinks water. He also I recently found, has 9 broken teeth.
I have started Basic training this week, after his settling period, but find that no matter how well days go, he does not eat. He came to us skinny and shedding, and has maybe gained 5lbs. To the training, I have taught him to sit, settle (lay down) and stay settle, all rewarded and done in short bursts during walks/ in the yard for 5-10 min. He does not play, ignores a tug, and I don't think has a prey drive as he has left the snow birds, rabbits and squirrels alone (tho he has always been dragging a 30ft leash)
I would like to know how to train him without messing him up, at his level, and also, as he is quite squeaky when it comes to collars and leashes, would a harness be better?
I am at a loss on where to start, have never had. GSD, and feel bad for the poor guy who never had a outside a kennel life.
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 Re: How do I start?
[Re: Becky Niedbalka ]
#400632 - 04/15/2016 01:36 AM |
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I should aslo mention, I cannot reward him with his food, as he spits it out and ignores it.
I was rewarding him with hot dog bits/ liver treats but than he would not touch his food period, so now I am rewarding him mostly on walks with verbal praise and a petting, and I drop the leash so he can wander a bit (if I stop walking he returns immediately so I believe he can be trusted just dragging?)
I use my body to block doors when he tries to go out first, which is working well! I have the Groundwork video, and Your Puppy 8 weeks to 8 months I believe it's called?
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Re: How do I start?
[Re: Becky Niedbalka ]
#400633 - 04/15/2016 03:54 AM |
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I would not trust this dog with a dragging lead unless you can very quickly get a foot on a long dragging lead. He has ZERO incentive to come back to you at this point other than intrinsic pack drive.
Are you free feeding? Have you tried different foods? What are you feeding right now?
I hate to dress up a dogs food normally but for an underweight dog I will add a tablespoon of wet or canned fish and some warm water. Some dogs just don't like certain foods. He may also have a conditioned dislike to food because of pain from his teeth. I've had some underweight fosters that trained with the food rolls as they're pretty calorie dense and they weren't great at eating meals yet. The Chewy's line of freeze dried raw normally goes over pretty well but it's pricey to feed a GSD. You can also spike a bag of a different kibble than he's normally offered with a piece of bacon and shake it around to make all the kibble taste/smell like bacon.
Marker training and shaping exercises are the fastest way to turn around the dogs that are just kind of "existing". Sounds like he may have turned to some OCD kennel chewing at one point from the broken teeth. Does he strike you as kind of "shut down" in his mannerisms?
How's his poop? I'd worry about EPI but normally those dogs also act like they're starving.
Can you rig up a flirt pole? He sounds like a sensitive guy but sometimes you can restart those with a flirt pole even if they've been punished for tug in the past. You just have to be really careful about your body language. No bending over them, eye contact, or squaring up to them.
I wouldn't bother with a harness as you have to handle him so much to get one on. I can't imagine it'd be less trouble than the collar is. He really needs the counter conditioning protocol like collar grabs. You can even start further up the leash if he's really freaky about it. We just need to find something to motivate him first. 
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Re: How do I start?
[Re: Becky Niedbalka ]
#400634 - 04/15/2016 03:56 AM |
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Just wanted to add that sometimes YOU have to be all of the excitement in the relationship. Don't be afraid to make a fool out of yourself if it gets the dog to perk up. Movement is motivating.
If you don't have it yet "The Power of Training your dog with Food" is really the cornerstone of training a dog with motivational methods and covers a lot of ways to make the reward more important than just the value of the food.
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Re: How do I start?
[Re: Cathy Goessman ]
#400635 - 04/15/2016 09:14 AM |
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He never goes farther than 15 feet on the drag line, mostly because he is afraid of it touching his feet, when it does he yelps like crazy and crouches, I tell him to settle so I can untangle it, which works as long as I hum when I do it.
He stands nicely for the harness and even puts up one paw so I can slip it on, but if I put the leash on the collar he will just stand there in his show stance and not budge. That's his fall-on when he gets confused, he stances and avoids eye contact.
I wanted to feed raw but up north our prices of meat are beyond ridiculous, a whole chicken is 30 bucks!
As of yesterday morning I left the bowl down from 9am-9pm and he didn't touch it or a drop of water all day  I will add some organic pumpkin and will pick up some canned fish, its not like his mouth could smell any worse haha!
He is sketchy when he poops, doesn't seem to like our winter, and hops around trying to keep his legs off the ground, but thankfully mostly always poops on our walks. He follows me everywhere and on walks he checks on me every few steps, even stopping when he gets to far ahead and waits for me to catch up. I never drop the line, and only have him on the long line instead of the 6ft leash when we are in wide open spaces, as the neighbors are buttwipes and have a pack of 4 huskies they leave loose constantly.
I try to be super excited for everything he does, and have been singing during walking and grooming, as it seems to calm him. Yes he seems a bit sad, and shut down,spending all of his indoor time sleeping, only waking when I leave the room, but in the past 2 weeks he is finally making eye contact, and when praised is waggy and dancing, he really appreciates being petted as a reward.
The foster told me they gave him frozen soup bones in the kennel, so I assumed that was why his teeth were ground, he did try to pull on the gate of the crate here twice, but I squirted him with a water bottle and told him nope, and than moved the crate into a secluded corner out of sight of the outside door,so I can pretend to leave and listen, and he hasn't done it again.
I know the worst thing to do is feel sorry for him, but I can't help it,especially since he came from I am hoping a good home before this woman purchased him (his name is CH Eko-Lan's Jazzman V Kinghaven OFA) She purchased him, she said, 3 years ago, but he has been retired for 2 years. She got him from the US.
With playing he doesn't chase, we tried tying the tug and pulling it around, he runds with me but does not touch the tug, or balls, doesn't really chew his pizzles either. I am fine with him not playing, I mostly want him to have a good retirement life, and be obedient 
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Re: How do I start?
[Re: Becky Niedbalka ]
#400636 - 04/15/2016 09:31 AM |
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One thing I will add, is I am having him drag a line in the house so he can get used to it, and when he has his upset moments, he does not attempt to bite, he mostly shuts down, almost like a cower, with his ears back, tail tucked and in a curled down (and that was for me taking him out for a pee when we were having a winter storm!)
I am feeding him Kirkland brand, which I know is crap, we have absolutely no good brands here, its either pedigree, Kirkland or Inukshuk, which is pretty much like Kirkland, I have been looking online for diff foods I can switch him to, feel free to give me some good names of Brands and I will see if I can get some shipped up!
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Re: How do I start?
[Re: Cathy Goessman ]
#400637 - 04/15/2016 10:14 AM |
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I was not free feeding at first, up until yesterday morning, he was put in the crate with the bowl, and I would leave it for 10-20min, and than take it out and let him out, he would be lucky to eat a full cup. He never eats it in the morning, which is why yest I just left the bowl down, to see what he would do, it is almost like he does not know to think for himself and just eat/drink? His tummy is growling at this moment.
In his food up until a few days ago, I was adding canned organic pumpkin (vet recommended due to his not drinking water) and a tbsp of canned food, watered down with warm water and mixed up, he still ate less than half, and had to be crated before he would touch it. If not crated, he grabs a mouthful, goes to his dog bed and spits it up, and than lays down. But if I crate him he won't drink water after, maybe I should buy those buckets you hang on the crate door to feed/ water at the same time?
He is very shut down, when not receiving attention he lays there looking miserable and than goes to sleep, I pet him when he is laying nicely, when he sits on command, etc, otherwise he can get pushy for attention, acts almost like a cat and rubs against you when he wants petting. I always make him do something before he gets a good body rub.
The only treat that motivtes him is liver treats, but I find when I use them, he doesn't eat even a bite of his food, even if I mix it in with the liver treats, almost like he is holding out for the good stuff?
So scrap the harness and just use the leash/collar? I can and will do anything anyone recommends, I know I started obviously on the wrong foot with him, as I thought he would perk up more, it is hard to work with him when I know so little about him! That's why I came to you guys!
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Re: How do I start?
[Re: Becky Niedbalka ]
#400638 - 04/15/2016 11:38 AM |
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Are you in Canada or the US? I love the Victor Hi-Pro Plus dog food and it's done a fantastic job of keeping weight on my American Bulldog. High calorie and high protein. Great price for the quality. My two like it enough to use as a training treat but they were raised with food=treat so it might be different with your dog.
Hmm, scared of legs being touched and default behavior is a shut down show stance? Sounds like your boy had some rough or outright abusive show training.
If he's cool with the harness you might switch to it to avoid the negative associations with the collar. I just wasn't sure how he was with it since you mentioned he doesn't like his legs being touched.
Kirkland isn't bad but I've definitely had some dogs that didn't really love it so I wouldn't hesitate to dress it up a bit.
For the hesitant water drinkers what I've done in the past is had several water bowls everywhere including one behind a couch or somewhere else more den like and in the crate. Then I get the dog tired and hot. Most of them get desperate enough to drink. I totally ignore them when they "sneak" a drink. You could also try baiting the water.
It sounds like he's settling in with you at least. Some dogs take a little longer to really get comfortable.
Can you try little chunks of wet food for a "treat"? I wear gloves to do it. Marker training does wonders for bringing dogs out of their shell but we have to have something to motivate him first and petting doesn't really lend itself to it.
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Re: How do I start?
[Re: Cathy Goessman ]
#400639 - 04/15/2016 12:22 PM |
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Are you in Canada or the US?
I am in Canada, in Churchill, Manitoba
I love the Victor Hi-Pro Plus dog food and it's done a fantastic job of keeping weight on my American Bulldog. High calorie and high protein. Great price for the quality. My two like it enough to use as a training treat but they were raised with food=treat so it might be different with your dog.
I will pick up some canned sardines, should I add some of the juice to his water?
Hmm, scared of legs being touched and default behavior is a shut down show stance? Sounds like your boy had some rough or outright abusive show training.
She called him an a-hole with the feet, said she couldn't get his nails trimmed, and we we received him Feb 29th, his dew claw was bleeding and way over cut by the vet. Needless to say I won't be using her vet, since they said nothing of his teeth either!
If he's cool with the harness you might switch to it to avoid the negative associations with the collar. I just wasn't sure how he was with it since you mentioned he doesn't like his legs being touched.
I will stick with the harness, but invest in a better one when we head south this summer for hollidays, he is more perky when he is wearing it, tho still dislikes any leashes attached, he tolerates it on the harness, and is more alove on walks (we do 1i2 hour daily slow hikes with tons of stops and he trots behind my snowmobile nicely!
Kirkland isn't bad but I've definitely had some dogs that didn't really love it so I wouldn't hesitate to dress it up a bit.
I will, I may even switch it up and add some cut up boiled chicken breast every now and then, will keep the pumpkin in, ordered some more cans, and will head to town to pick up some canned sardines (we live 13km from Churchill, in the bush!)
For the hesitant water drinkers what I've done in the past is had several water bowls everywhere including one behind a couch or somewhere else more den like and in the crate. Then I get the dog tired and hot. Most of them get desperate enough to drink. I totally ignore them when they "sneak" a drink. You could also try baiting the water.
I have a water bowl in the house a few feet from his favorite bed, and another in the porch we use to go outside, in case he wants a drink on the way in or out, what should I bait it with?
It sounds like he's settling in with you at least. Some dogs take a little longer to really get comfortable.
He loves my 8 and 9 year old, is very gentle with them and walks btwn the two when they play outside, keeping them in sight at all times, he really perks up when they come home from school, I always supervise them, luckily he does not jump, or nip, tho sometimes he does gently mouth you when he gets excited, I correct it with a nope, and he stops right away. It took him a week to stop just standing in show stance in the middle of a room, and 5 days before he realized the big dog bed was his, now he loves the beds and immediatly beelines for it when he is in the house.
Can you try little chunks of wet food for a "treat"? I wear gloves to do it. Marker training does wonders for bringing dogs out of their shell but we have to have something to motivate him first and petting doesn't really lend itself to it.
Where we are, I can't for safety bring wet or smelly food outside, we are surrounded by bears, wolverines and wolves, I will up the treat for indoor/yard training, I ordered some duck sticks, and will mix them in with some dog food and the liver treats, maybe mist it a bit with water so it all smells the same! Thank you for all this great info, we love him already and he has been great to work with, even with his issues, I can tell he wants to come out of his shell, he just needs to learn how to relax and have fun!
Ps, I am not sure I quote replied right, sorry if it comes out messed up, we don't have internet out here so I am relying on my blackberry to send these posts out, and its not always reliable!
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Re: How do I start?
[Re: Becky Niedbalka ]
#400640 - 04/15/2016 12:47 PM |
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He sounds like a very nice boy and I'm glad he landed with you.
One final suggestion. Is he good with other dogs? Sometimes another dog's enthusiasm for a treat is infectious. Just be watchful as some kennel dogs learn to resource guard from other dogs.
You can bait the water by leaving a piece of meat in it for a bit or just pouring something like the sardine juice in there.
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