I have 2 DVDs, 2 videos and a book from him. I've never seen him giving or recommending physical corrections. (Jerking the leash, using the electric colar)

He speaks about this in his book, explains the when and how etc, warns from giving it as an unexperienced handler, warns from giving corrections when dog wears prong colar. From all I've seen and read he is not principally against it, he himself uses corrections but very seldom seldom.

But I've heard voices who are completely against him, because he does use them and judge him for this in a very negative sense. Some even speak about abuse.

I know that different people understand the word correction in completely different ways.

But I've got the impression, that n does it in the way like Ed Frawley explains:

1)Only if we are sure the dog knows absolutely what we want from him.

2)Dog knows the meaning Of "No!" or equivalent word.

3)Only, when dog continues with the undesired behavior after we have warned him with the "No".

4)The "No" has to be given always in the very exact moment the dog makes the mistake.

5)The level of correction always dependent on the sensitivity of the individual dog.

6) Level of correction strong enough, so that it has meaning for the dog, but never so strong, that a dog will feel intimidated.

7) Only very experienced handlers should do this and only in very rare situations.


What is now true? Has anyone seen or heard Ivan talking in a course and knows how he does it really?

And/or: What do you think about giving physical corrections in the way Ed explains?

Re-watch the section on Outs. He just sits there yanking the leash attached to a prong until the dog outs. To me that just builds conflict which builds drive to keep the object. I like ME method much better there although Ivan does mention that it's a retraining thing for dogs that already have a crappy out if I'm remembering right. Personally I only really look into what people say about a trainer if I'm going to be attending a seminar or something. I tend to just take the DVD's at face value. I take what I want from them and reject the rest.

Ivan's methods, like most modern sports trainers, have evolved as newer methods have become available. Practically any IPO trainer that has been in IPO for longer than 10 years has used physical corrections and aversives at some point, and Ivan is no exception. He is not above giving corrections or using aversives, but his system now utilizes more reward-based, positive reinforcement than he did in the past. Same goes for ME.

Up until 10-20 years ago, almost all working dogs were trained using conflict through the use of aversives. Dogs have not changed; trainers and training have. Older techniques, such as using the prong collar in "out" training, still work. The problem is that people who don't understand them are so outspoken in their criticism that it is not worth dealing with the social pressure. Reward-based training offers a more palatable option. I have trained the out using the aversive, and I have trained it using reward only. IMO, the dog trained on the prong has a more reliable out, but the dog trained using positive reinforcement appears to be more willing and enthusiastic. IMO, many dogs that are taught to out the "killed" sleeve are sloppy and reluctant.

FWIW, IMHO, IME, there is still conflict when training the out using markers. I have seen high prey dogs that still don't want to release the object even though they are anticipating the mark. The bite and grip are self-gratifying, and thereby have more value than a reward for many high end working dogs. Even if the dog wants to access the reward, his drives and instincts are conflicting with that. My personal dog was taught to bark,hold, and retrieve for a food reward, but when she is engaged on the sleeve, she often refuses the first out command. I can lift her feet off the ground and she will out, but I consider that an aversive.

ETA; Michael Ellis uses aversives, conflict, and escape avoidance in his training. You won't see much of it in his videos, but one of his core techniques is to use an electric collar and teach the dog how to turn off the pressure. He is also an advocate of the prong collar.

Ellis and Balabanov both use corrections in their training.

To many see motivational training as NO corrections.

It can be done but you have to have the right trainer and the right dog.


Corrections are always in the tool box. it's just a matter of knowing the dog and PROPER level of correction for the dog.

I agree with Ed and it's similar to Ellis.

Correcting an older dog that has been brought up with markers can be somewhat of an issue if the dog doesn't understand corrections.

With ANY training, markers or correction based the timing is critical.

All of my dogs understand corrections because I use them at low level with pups during house manners.

That's a leadership/management issue as much as it is training.

For training I don't unless completely justified but I have no issues if needed.

Be it luck or just a lot of dogs under the bridge I've gotten away with little to none when it comes to actual training.

Firmness with fairness!






As to

Cathy, thanks for drawing my attention to this. I will certainly rewatch it. I wouldn't like this at all within a training session. Would be disappointing for me, because then what he writes doesn't necessarily match with what he practices. Or he as a highly professional can judge better, when this is appropriate or not. In this sense I could accept it.
But, yes, what you wrote makes sense. This might easily lead the dog into a conflict between obeying or keeping the object. One of my Pits doesn't tug at all, doesn't even hold an object. Her sister does, she also outs immediately. But I've never tried it with a person with bite sleeve. I'd rather not try!

I also watch and read from different trainers and choose what seems good to me. But how choose correctly as a bloody beginner? You need comparisons, you need to try out. I like to have an overview over different methods, techniques, opinions. But as here I have no professionals I have to choose more or less on my own and so in the beginning I also copied crap, unfortunately.


Duane, that's very interesting. I have no experience what's going on in certain dog sports. I have read about and watched videos, but never seen into the real situation. If a trainer is able to see his errors and methods and change them over the years, more interested in the dog's well being than in his own ambitions, then I do respect this highly.

I for myself with in between some, but still little experience would not dare to give corrections within a training session. Apart from this it was never necessary. I've made the best experience with reward based training, also using sometimes negative punishment (= withholding the reward, if I understood this right ?). But then I have to think again about my technique. Often my husband films the session and then I can see withholding would not have been necessary, if I had given the command when the dog was focussed on me, not when he had more important things to do or was still occupied with eating his previous reward.

Corrections I have already given to one of my Pits on walks, when she went on pulling after the "No". But then I stopped doing this, because finally I noticed that after a correction she walked with the tail between her legs. I felt so sorry about her, I must have been blind.

Perhaps I had given the correction wrong or too strong, I don't know, perhaps it wasn't even necessary at all. I have most DVDs of Michael and others, but watching DVDs is IMO not enough. Without the help of a professional, I prefer to refrain from giving corrections again. I saw, the pulling was actually my own fault, for I had exposed her to too many distractions. She is the biggest and strongest of my dogs, but also the most fearful one. I have to choose much more quiet places with her than with my other 3 and get her slowly used to a little bit more distractions. Forrest's Engagement Skills course has helped me very much with this. Trying to be more attractive than the distraction is for me the way now. But sometimes it is quite difficult, as I can not foresee everything which might turn up.

A prong collar I bought too (good Leerburg customer!), but I've never used it until now. I've read the articles, watched the instructions, but I lack the courage - again: because I have no trainer to correct me. I hope to be able to achieve my goal without prong, reward based + engagement + perhaps sometimes a neg.p.

Would you agree with this?

Sure Bob, without having the right trainer nothing works. My access to good trainers are Leerburg's interactive online courses. I love them most, because I can upload Vids and will recieve feedback. For giving corrections I have only DVDs and Videos. There is nothing interactive available, which is very logical for me, as an instructor would not be able to decide only from watching my vid, if I'm giving the correction to the right dog. Additionally it would be somehow schizophrenic. I would have to ask the dog to awfully misbehave, just in order to be able to film my way of correcting.

Timing is critical, yes, I guess (so not 100% sure) I would do that part right. But what if not. I'd have a very confused dog or perhaps worse. "Firmness with Fairness", without doubt. That's why I don't dare to physically correct any more.

I agree with Ed and Michael. For me, corrections are a natural part of educating a dog. The mother corrects her puppies too. Big difference to me: she knows exactly how, she's got an instinct for this. In my situation I think it is better to leave it. Or do you think, we can learn it with the help of DVDs alone?

Thanks to you all for your answers, which I always appreciate so much.

Yes. I think you are better off not worrying about corrections for now. I learned to use the prong collar from a much more experienced trainer, and I still misused it in the beginning. You can do more harm than good with it.

Some people let the dog self-correct on the prong. True enough, it will slow down a large dog who is dragging someone down the street, but the more effective use of the prong in that situation would be to train the dog in proper leash etiquette.

Work on your rewards and corrections without the dog.

Just walk around the yard and mentally go through different situations.

In the beginning it's to easy to make mistakes when your concentrating on what your doing and what your dog is doing at the same time.

Without the dog you only have think about what your doing.

Good football/soccer players kick at empty nets in practice. Baseball players are always taking batting practice in training.

Those are all about timing and the mental part of the games.

That can help both your timing and confidence.

Thanks to you both. Very good advices.
My dogs(2 of them 4 1/2, other 2 are 3 1/2 years) walk nicely on a loose leash for quite long distances. I partly allow them to sniff around, but when the leash stretches I stand still or change direction and call them back.

On quiet spots I also make exercises they already know well and short parts of heeling.

Until this point there's no problem. They are used to a certain level of distractions. They already began to ignore other people and dogs. But not always, it depends on the situation.

When people carry a strange thing or run or when a bike, bycicle passes by in high speed,then the level is too high for them.

For this I am now training in the yard gradually adding distractions and also on a calm way in front of our house with a friend with bike, who just pushes it slowly. Once the dogs will go on walking on a loose leash ignoring the bike, the friend will start moving slowly while sitting on the bike and so on.

I want to teach them this without physical corrections, only with a No and/or engagement events. I hope to succeed like this.

Yes, training without dog is a very good advice. I'm doing this before praaticing new exercises until I think I've got it. I'm training also reward and engagement events (including correct food delivery) in front of a mirror, also verbal corrections, physical ones I don't dare because there's no one to correct me.

Thanks! And please do correct me if you notice something wrong or something lacking.

Do you ever walk the dogs individually?

It's to easy for the group of them to get excited over distractions if even just one of them has a lower threshold for outside stimulus.

Trying to work with more then one at a time can be difficult.

Yes, Bob, I'm aware of this. That's why I without exception walk the dogs individually. I will never try pack walks, also it would be nice and save a lot of time. But I'm 75, and am glad to máster one of my Pits if something unexpected turns up. With more than one it would really be much too difficult, s you write. I probably wouldn't be able to cope with the situation in a resonnable manner.