Don't think this is working out
#402782 - 01/11/2017 12:33 AM |
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As you know about Jazz and his issues, things are not getting better. He just does not seem to want to accept living in the home as a dog, and I think if he could, he would just like to live in that damn crate.
He kept sticking himself in corners in the house, and ignoring us, so I blocked all walls with furniture. He always scrapes his collar against the wall, and I was to be damned to have more lines pulled down the wall, so now he is only allowed in the home with ample space, but in the middle of rooms. He still wears a leash in the home, and outdoors, as when I tell him outside for potty times or when we leave a room, he still tries to corner himself. Pretty much anything I tell him to do he does the opposite. If I put his food down and give him the okay to get out of a sit, he walks away and would rather starve, if I fill his water bowl, and tell him to have a drink, he will not touch the bloody water all day.. Hell if I tell him to sit he lays down and if I say down he sits..we find he is this way with anyone who tries to ask anything of him.
I don't put up with guff, and if I tell him to sit before we go out, I refuse to open the door, and will stand there til he sits..
It seems like the past few months since its been cold he has turned into a real prick, and honestly I am getting sick of the fighting. I tried marker training, I have the dvd's, and he does not have a drive for anything..basically, he would love to shove his rear in your face when you have a treat of any kind, but when you ask him to earn it he gives the dog fu and tries to walk off..but since I have a leash under my foot to stop him from leaving, he will do the command when he hits the end, and than lay there and put his ears back and refuse to do more..
I am tired of forcing him. I have arthritis in my hands and I can't keep tugging on a leash.
He knows the basic sit, lay down, I know he knows..but the battle of wills continue on to when he will finally respect us enough to get a grip and realize, I am not the ex owner, I refuse to crate him when he refuses, and will have him to what I ask, and reward when it is done..is he even workable?
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Re: Don't think this is working out
[Re: Becky Niedbalka ]
#402783 - 01/11/2017 12:43 AM |
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Tho he responds much better to men, and actually wags his tail, but once he is given a command, by a man, tries to slink off..i am almost ready to borrow a friends dog and use it as leverage to get this one to work! Maybe he would respond better when he sees another dog getting a praise and treat for doing simple things!
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Re: Don't think this is working out
[Re: Becky Niedbalka ]
#402787 - 01/11/2017 01:00 PM |
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He kept sticking himself in corners in the house, and ignoring us, so I blocked all walls with furniture...
...but the battle of wills continue on to when he will finally respect us enough to get a grip and realize, I am not the ex owner, I refuse to crate him when he refuses, and will have him to what I ask, and reward when it is done..is he even workable?
I'm sorry to hear this, Becky. The last time you posted, a couple months ago, it sounded like you were making progress. If I'm remembering correctly from your previous posts about Jazz, you got him from someone else in Manitoba who was showing him (or having him shown) in conformation, and that's pretty much all they did with the dog? But he originally came from a breeder in Michigan. Are you only his third owner, or has he had others? I'm wondering if you've thought about contacting his breeder to share with them of the state Jazz is in now and asking if they have any insight or ideas. This seems like the kind of situation where the services of a professional canine behaviorist would be warranted, but I'm sure that option is not available to you.
For now, though, my feeling is if he wants to hide in corners, why not let him? It sounds like forcing him into a situation where he feels he cannot hide when he wants to is only exacerbating his stress and fear.
You've used the term "battle of wills," but I am not sensing a dog that is being willfully disobedient. Everything that you have described in this and previous threads tells me this is a seriously stressed and confused dog, possibly abused or at least mistreated in his past, and some of his previous life experiences are so deeply ingrained that they are unlikely to ever be totally forgotten. It is a very slow process for a dog like that to learn to trust again and enjoy life.
All JMO. I am not a professional trainer or behaviorist.
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Re: Don't think this is working out
[Re: Becky Niedbalka ]
#402789 - 01/11/2017 01:36 PM |
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I agree he is not being willfully disobedient, and he has been in 3 homes, the first a kennel, second was crated, and the third was crated. He has being in the crate so ingrained in his mind that I have taken it out of sight, so when he is in the home, it is still available, but he would have to go further to get to it.
I blocked the walls because he is scraping them with his collar. He has the ability to lay against the couches still, but the walls and my fish tank stand are off limits.
Your right, he probably does need a pro trainer, we do not have that option here. I guess he has come a ways, but it is frustrating seeing him just shut down all the time.
Don't get me wrong, we would never send him back to where he was before, but I have put a stop to any work, as we had school holidays here for the xmas break, and I think having the kids home all day running around and having fun threw him off big time.
Some of your previous advice has worked, if he does not eat his food for example, yesterday, (and I do cover it after 10min), he eats all of it the day after.
It would be nice one day to have him actually leave the crate in the morning with his tail wagging, looking forward to the day. The one good thing with him that keeps me trying is the fact that after some good exercise, he will lay sprawled on his side and stay relaxed as long as you don't move..so at least I know he can let his guard down sometimes!
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Re: Don't think this is working out
[Re: Becky Niedbalka ]
#402799 - 01/13/2017 07:51 AM |
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I'm bumping this on Becky's behalf, as I sure would like to see input from some of our other members. I know we have a lot of folks out there with experience in rehabilitation of adopted dogs, dealing with quirky behavioral issues, and so on. Thoughts, suggestions, ideas, comments, two cents? Anybody?
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Kelly wrote 01/13/2017 11:24 AM
Re: Don't think this is working out
[Re: Becky Niedbalka ]
#402800 - 01/13/2017 11:24 AM |
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I am not in the home to see the dog's behaviors, so take what I say for what it is - complete spitballing...
I had a rescue that I named Shyner. She was afraid of everything. She was found running loose out in the country, and after a month with no claims on her, she was officially "ours". She was about a year old, at the time...
Shyner would shut down when there were loud noises, if she had to get into the car, if someone walked directly towards her, etc. She had little food drive to start, and never did play with a toy in the 12 years that we had her. Training her was difficult to say the least...
In the beginning, her training reward was to stop training. The one thing she wanted was to be done with training so when she did something right, that's what she got. Needless to say, training was slow, but this way, she knew that the way to stop me from doing what I was doing - to get the pressure off, was to do what I asked. She also learned that working with me wasn't the end of the world These sessions were extremely short - simple things like sit, or down, look at me when I say your name were taught - nothing complicated. Once she began to offer behaviors, I was able to incorporate praise as her reward. She never did work for food or toy rewards - didn't care for them.
She also learned how to be a dog by observing and interacting with my other dogs. They modeled the proper behaviors to her, and slowly she began to take her place in the pack. I have to give credit where credit is due, as my dogs have always been very accepting of other dogs and are great behavior models.
Shyner was never once corrected with anything harsher than a "nope" in a lower than normal voice. It took me over a year to crate train her. Every step Shyner took required time, patience, and consistency. Lots of time was spent just developing the bond - sitting with her talking softly, giving belly rubs, ear scratches, etc. She used to hide behind the bed - between the bed and the wall - when she was scared. It was her place, and I never took it away from her - even when she started going to the crate, once in a while, she would go back the the bed.
Watching her slowly open up and be a dog was worth every single painstaking step, though.
I think for dogs like Shyner, something like Rescue Remedy may have been helpful - just to take the edge off the stress and get her into a learning state of mind.
Just my experience...
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Re: Don't think this is working out
[Re: Becky Niedbalka ]
#402801 - 01/13/2017 11:31 AM |
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I, like Cheri, thought you were happier with your progress....but I also see how you are still frustrated! From previous posts I understand you're not looking for a bear-busting braveheart, but a family member that could at least lay nearby and enjoy being a dog.
If that is the case, and I don't remember him having bad manners like jumping, barking inappropriately, or food snatching, then why not try having almost no expectations? For example, as long as he's not bolting out of a door in front of you or always knocking you over, why make him sit? Maybe in some way the commands have become a barrier? Could ignoring him make him want your attention? And if you guys have a particularly good day (whatever that may look like) maybe give him time in his kennel as an extra "good boy".
I think it is encouraging that he will go out and get enough exercise to relax a little. If he were completely removed, he probably wouldn't want to go with you at all! Exercise can have so many positive effects, one of them being stress relief. If he likes a walk, maybe that is a reward. My male GSD loved his walk so much, he wouldn't go to the bathroom beforehand and then had to go while we were out. So I would take short unscheduled walks when he used the bathroom in his designated spot. I thought it would be a complicated reward, but it didn't take him long to get it! Anything he likes (or doesn't) could be used to pull him out of his resistance, since you don't seem to be able to use food.
These are just scattered thoughts that had come to mind. I, too, was hoping someone else had ideas! It's so hard not seeing things firsthand, at least for me...
I would say the most important thing is to do what you are doing, keep positive, keep trying, and keep sane! I believe Jazz is so lucky to have come to your home, I wish you two the best in your relationship building!
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Re: Don't think this is working out
[Re: Christina Lockard ]
#402802 - 01/13/2017 11:56 AM |
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I, like Cheri, thought you were happier with your progress....but I also see how you are still frustrated! From previous posts I understand you're not looking for a bear-busting braveheart, but a family member that could at least lay nearby and enjoy being a dog. "
That is exactly what we want!
"If that is the case, and I don't remember him having bad manners like jumping, barking inappropriately, or food snatching, then why not try having almost no expectations? For example, as long as he's not bolting out of a door in front of you or always knocking you over, why make him sit? Maybe in some way the commands have become a barrier? Could ignoring him make him want your attention? And if you guys have a particularly good day (whatever that may look like) maybe give him time in his kennel as an extra "good boy".
He actually does bolt out the door, taking and has ran onto the bear board under the deck window on 2 occasions, that is why I use a sit for doors, with walking slowly out on a short leash. If you don't have the leash and someone knocks on the door, he runs out, so that is why the first thing I taught him is to sit and wait.
"I think it is encouraging that he will go out and get enough exercise to relax a little. If he were completely removed, he probably wouldn't want to go with you at all! Exercise can have so many positive effects, one of them being stress relief. If he likes a walk, maybe that is a reward. My male GSD loved his walk so much, he wouldn't go to the bathroom beforehand and then had to go while we were out. So I would take short unscheduled walks when he used the bathroom in his designated spot. I thought it would be a complicated reward, but it didn't take him long to get it! Anything he likes (or doesn't) could be used to pull him out of his resistance, since you don't seem to be able to use food."
He does resist walks, and will lay there and shiver until I am ready to go out, he does not resist going outside, but the whole walk until you head back is ears back, tail hamging, and show form walking. He has a 6ft leash, and his nose never touches the ground, he never looks around, its like he is marching..in the winter he cannot be off lead, as he will lay in a spot and not move, unless I physically leash him and make him. I even walked aways and left him around the corner for 20min, had a coffee break and than called him, he refused to move, so I had to trek back and leash him and make him continue home.
On a flattened trail off lead, he just walks on my heels. Literally, his claws are pulling on the back of my boots so much I start tripping. I stop frequently so he can have a sniff, but he just stands there waiting for me to go on, and if I have a cig he lays down to wait for me to finish. On walks I say nothing, but usually hum to ingrained 60's music in my head lol.
"These are just scattered thoughts that had come to mind. I, too, was hoping someone else had ideas! It's so hard not seeing things firsthand, at least for me...
I would say the most important thing is to do what you are doing, keep positive, keep trying, and keep sane! I believe Jazz is so lucky to have come to your home, I wish you two the best in your relationship building!"
Thank you, it is frustrating to be alone 8-9hrs a day with a dog and not be able to bond, play, or even just sit with him..sometimes I just want to grab him and force him to sit beside me!
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Kelly wrote 01/13/2017 12:05 PM
Re: Don't think this is working out
[Re: Becky Niedbalka ]
#402803 - 01/13/2017 12:05 PM |
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Just another quick thought here, has he ever had his hearing checked? Lots of dogs that are labeled "willful or disobedient" are simply deaf or hard of hearing.
When Tyra's hearing started to go, I found myself getting frustrated with having to constantly repeat commands - then it hit me that she just can't hear me like she used to...
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Re: Don't think this is working out
[Re: Becky Niedbalka ]
#402804 - 01/13/2017 12:06 PM |
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I don't think this is about respect it's about trust and if a dog doesn't trust they don't want to be part of your pack. You have a dog that knows nothing but the safety of the crate. Forcing a dog that doesn't trust or is fearful of this new situation will do nothing but make it worse.
Don't take it personal, look at it from where the dog came from. I remember one of the lines from early training was about allowing the dog to keep their dignity.
Something as simple as eating his meal from your hand without having comply with a command could begin the road to trusting.
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