I’m not even sure how to put this. I’ve had great success so far by using the videos and courses on Leerburg. I would gladly and happily continue using this approach of watching Michael Ellis videos and reading forums and articles to train my 10 week old GSD, Negan. And I fully intend to. However, my wife, HAPPY WIFE HAPPY LIFE, is interested in using a local trainer, I'll call him "Local". We went to him for a specific problem behavior and he helped and we did a 1 hour private session, which was impressive. He does not use the same methods taught here. They aren’t entirely different. In fact, they are very similar. I can see that they work. I’m open to using this guy for a 6 week course or two for the benefit of having someone observe and correct my behavior with Negan but I have one very big concern…Negan already has a strong foundation in marker training as laid out by Michael Ellis. I am concerned that I will lose my line of communication with Negan, that he will be frustrated, and that he will not be interested. In fact, I can already see that Negan does not respond as well to me when I use what I was shown by Local.
Let me take all that one step deeper in to a rabbit hole. What Local does is use his body language along with a lure to illicit a behavior. This behavior is then marked with a command. Cooperation from Negan is rewarded periodically upon completion of sets of reps rather than each rep (e. g. COME, SIT, STAY, WAIT - “good god” - then reward). Very different from what I do (SIT – “YESS” – reward). Having clarified that, I don’t see any issue with moving from what he does to what Ellis does. Negan will obviously favor getting rewarded on a per behavior basis. But, going from that unspoken contract (1 behavior = 1 rewarding experience) to Negan having to offer more may not go over so well. More importantly, the marker has moved. That marker was the anchor to all of it and what allows Negan to trust what I say. So, will this damage my relationship with Negan?
Like I said, I feel like I get most of what I need from videos on this site. I’m cool here for 99% of it. I do see some benefits to using this other guy. I think the body language aspect of it is pretty cool. Michael Ellis teaches body pressure and I understand it. But, I must confess, when Local got Negan to not only sit, but to lay down and to stay, I was totally amazed. He wasn’t using my commands and I had never taught Negan to lay down or to stay. Mind blown. I think this guy has good tools that I can use. But, I can live without him, lol. I’m good here because toolbox there is a plenty. Again, my main concern though…would it confuse Negan?

I think luring may take a bit longer but it does work.

I'm not a fan of doing multiple behaviors before the individual behaviors are pretty solid ESPECIALLY with a puppy.

A puppy in particular has a very short attention span and I can't see one going through 4-5 behaviors when not all may be done well.

"FOR ME" it seems like that would only add confusion and contaminate all the exercises.

Even with adult dogs many here will still work on a new behaviors individually then chain it int a set of behaviors.

Hopefully others here will add to my thoughts or give their own thoughts on it.

Bob is the man to listen to.

Marker training with a puppy will reap big rewards as the dog matures.

Multiple approaches muddy the waters.

The neighbors were doing great with their puppy but decided they could expedite training by bringing in a pricey trainer. In my mind they took two steps back but it is their dog. In my mind some of the joy went out of the puppy but what do I know.

Two cents.

Mike A.

I think your Local is using chaining varios behaviors too early for your dog. This will confuse him. First all the behaviors you named have to be very solid and this means very well proofed on different places, different situations, varying distractions.

If then a handler increases the difficulty the way you described, the dog should already have learned, that he will not be rewarded each time. He will have to get used to that the reward may come only after 2, 3 ... times of repeating the same behavior.

Then you may begin to chain two behaviors. Practicing this, the dog will begin to understand that sometimes the sit is just a bridge e.g. to a "sit pretty" or whatsoever, but that this leads to a reward, perhaps to a jackpot. But this has to be practiced before chaining 4 or more exercises.

In my eyes he's just confused, because the jump from the level he's used to the next one is too high, too rapid. As far as I have understood you, you seem to have found a quite good trainer. But what he asks at the moment is simply overwhelming your dog. Like with everything else a dog needs the time to learn things at his individual pace.

A new behavior I would like Bob says always teach individually following the methods described from LB instructors, depending on the exercise using luring, free shaping, capturing the moment.

About luring: that's ok to a certain point. Dogs learn normally quicker that way, but there's the danger that they begin to depend on it. Hand or generally body signs - same thing. A good method. Dogs can learn to read our body signs much easier than our verbal commands. Of course if you had a deaf dog you'd have no other choice.
You can certainly train a dog to do all kind of exercises just with body signs. If you want to limit it all to this, then it is simply your decision.

I personnally wouldn't do this with a normal hearing dog. Dogs are so talented. Why waste their capacities? Once they've got a behavior in their paws, they learn to connect it without problem with the sound we produce as command. (Provided it's done correctly. You find this all when following M.E.

In some cases it can be even a question of safety. Dependent on the constellation where you stand - where the dog stands, he may not see your body sign, but even at a long distance he can hear your voice, whistle etc.

Wow, folks, Your input is priceless! You have all confirmed that my concerns are valid. I'm going to have to talk to my wife bout this before our appointment on Thursday.

Bob and Mike are hard acts to follow! They are two of the people I would most like to get advice from on this board if I posted a question. So I'm just going to expand on a couple of things you mentioned, Jeff, and make a couple observations.

"In fact, I can already see that Negan does not respond as well to me when I use what I was shown by Local."

This is concerning and may be all the evidence you need that this trainer's methods are not working as well for your particular puppy. He may be a well-qualified trainer, but not every dog will respond to particular methods in the exact same way, especially if said dog already has a strong foundation in a different, albeit similar, method.

"Cooperation from Negan is rewarded periodically upon completion of sets of reps rather than each rep (e. g. COME, SIT, STAY, WAIT - “good god” - then reward)."

(I'm assuming you meant to type "good dog.") Chaining behaviors as you describe here seems a little advanced for the age and level your pup is at. I, too, like to work on one behavior at a time and have the pup thoroughly understanding it before I ask for multiple behaviors in a row. That said, you will reach a point where you have to start fading the lures and rewarding more randomly as you believe the pup understands the commands.

"I’m open to using this guy for a 6 week course or two for the benefit of having someone observe and correct my behavior with Negan. . . . . ."

This, IMO, is one of the best reasons to use a qualified, experienced instructor. Watching videos is a great learning experience, but you are totally missing out on having an observer, someone who can offer feedback on your technique, correct any errors you are making. Even handlers I know with decades of experience under their belts like to occasionally have another experienced handler observe or even videotape them when they are working with their dog.

"I think this guy has good tools that I can use."

A continuation of the above point. I have taken many lessons from many different instructors over the years and have learned something valuable from each one (even if it was to learn something I felt did not work for me). I believe in learning as much as I can from a variety of sources and then applying what works best for me and for my particular dog(s). That may be a bit from one trainer, a bit from another, and it will vary from dog to dog. The important thing for me is that the overall philosophy is the same, which for me is positive reinforcement training with fair corrections when warranted.

"However, my wife, HAPPY WIFE HAPPY LIFE, is interested in using a local trainer, I'll call him "Local"."

I think it's great that your wife is actively involved in the upbringing of this puppy, and you are right to consider her opinions. Is it just this particular trainer that she is interested in? Or would you both be open to looking elsewhere? You live in an area that I don't believe is remote, and there should be a number of different trainers/instructors to choose from. Maybe you could check out others and find one you both can agree on. Many will allow you to come and observe a session, without your dog, at no charge.

All in all, I think you are right to follow your gut, after careful and considered research, discussing it with your wife, observing the results on Negan, etc. None of us here have the opportunity to see you in action with your pup, so in a lot of respects, it's difficult to form an opinion. We can only answer based on the way you phrased your questions.

Whew, I see this was a wordy post! I hope I have not just confused you more!

 Quote: Mike Arnold

Bob is the man to listen to.

Marker training with a puppy will reap big rewards as the dog matures.

Multiple approaches muddy the waters.

The neighbors were doing great with their puppy but decided they could expedite training by bringing in a pricey trainer.

In my mind they took two steps back but it is their dog. In my mind some of the joy went out of the puppy but what do I know.

Two cents.

Mike A.

Everything Mike & Bob said above

 Quote: Cheri Grissom

Bob and Mike are hard acts to follow! They are two of the people I would most like to get advice from on this board if I posted a question. So I'm just going to expand on a couple of things you mentioned, Jeff, and make a couple observations.

"In fact, I can already see that Negan does not respond as well to me when I use what I was shown by Local."

This is concerning and may be all the evidence you need that this trainer's methods are not working with your puppy...

While there is always more than one way to "skin s cat", it's also very true that "too many cooks spoil the stew" -- Personally, I would stick with the ONE method that works BEST with Negan ... Later on down the road, you can use different approaches & various ideas, IMHO

 Quote: Cheri Grissom

Bob and Mike are hard acts to follow! They are two of the people I would most like to get advice from on this board if I posted a question. So I'm just going to expand on a couple of things you mentioned, Jeff, and make a couple observations.

"In fact, I can already see that Negan does not respond as well to me when I use what I was shown by Local."

This is concerning and may be all the evidence you need that this trainer's methods are not working as well for your particular puppy. He may be a well-qualified trainer, but not every dog will respond to particular methods in the exact same way, especially if said dog already has a strong foundation in a different, albeit similar, method.

"Cooperation from Negan is rewarded periodically upon completion of sets of reps rather than each rep (e. g. COME, SIT, STAY, WAIT - “good god” - then reward)."

(I'm assuming you meant to type "good dog.") Chaining behaviors as you describe here seems a little advanced for the age and level your pup is at. I, too, like to work on one behavior at a time and have the pup thoroughly understanding it before I ask for multiple behaviors in a row. That said, you will reach a point where you have to start fading the lures and rewarding more randomly as you believe the pup understands the commands.

"I’m open to using this guy for a 6 week course or two for the benefit of having someone observe and correct my behavior with Negan. . . . . ."

This, IMO, is one of the best reasons to use a qualified, experienced instructor. Watching videos is a great learning experience, but you are totally missing out on having an observer, someone who can offer feedback on your technique, correct any errors you are making. Even handlers I know with decades of experience under their belts like to occasionally have another experienced handler observe or even videotape them when they are working with their dog.

"I think this guy has good tools that I can use."

A continuation of the above point. I have taken many lessons from many different instructors over the years and have learned something valuable from each one (even if it was to learn something I felt did not work for me). I believe in learning as much as I can from a variety of sources and then applying what works best for me and for my particular dog(s). That may be a bit from one trainer, a bit from another, and it will vary from dog to dog. The important thing for me is that the overall philosophy is the same, which for me is positive reinforcement training with fair corrections when warranted.

"However, my wife, HAPPY WIFE HAPPY LIFE, is interested in using a local trainer, I'll call him "Local"."

I think it's great that your wife is actively involved in the upbringing of this puppy, and you are right to consider her opinions. Is it just this particular trainer that she is interested in? Or would you both be open to looking elsewhere? You live in an area that I don't believe is remote, and there should be a number of different trainers/instructors to choose from. Maybe you could check out others and find one you both can agree on. Many will allow you to come and observe a session, without your dog, at no charge.

All in all, I think you are right to follow your gut, after careful and considered research, discussing it with your wife, observing the results on Negan, etc. None of us here have the opportunity to see you in action with your pup, so in a lot of respects, it's difficult to form an opinion. We can only answer based on the way you phrased your questions.

Whew, I see this was a wordy post! I hope I have not just confused you more!

Not confusing at all and I am so grateful for your objective and thoughtful reply. I've discussed these ideas with my wife and, essentially, she feels like she needs a trainer to oversee her training Negan. We live in Mount Vernon, IL, which is not nowhere in and of itself but is definitely located near the middle of it. I think finding a trainer between us and St. Louis, who uses something more similar to the Ellis approach would be an enormous help. She noticed that Bod Scott is in Stl so we'll ask him.

My gut instinct on Local is that he is highly qualified but too different from Leerburg to use. Leerburg fits my learning style perfectly. Thank you again for your input. It is highly valued.

 Quote: Candi Campbell

 Quote: Cheri Grissom

Bob and Mike are hard acts to follow! They are two of the people I would most like to get advice from on this board if I posted a question. So I'm just going to expand on a couple of things you mentioned, Jeff, and make a couple observations.

"In fact, I can already see that Negan does not respond as well to me when I use what I was shown by Local."

This is concerning and may be all the evidence you need that this trainer's methods are not working with your puppy...

While there is always more than one way to "skin s cat", it's also very true that "too many cooks spoil the stew" -- Personally, I would stick with the ONE method that works BEST with Negan ... Later on down the road, you can use different approaches & various ideas, IMHO

"Too many cooks spoil the stew." I love that! That's how I feel about this. We will have to find someone else.