am trying to housetrain an 8 year old rescue dog that was kennelled at a puppy mill all her life. Following recommendations from web board but she poops in her crate...and then sleeps in it. What to do?
Got an answer from Cindy when forum was down for maintenance:
"We also have a housetraining video, it's mostly for puppies but the techniques are applicable for any age dog. After 8 years living in a cage at a puppy mill you may have to come up with an alternative to a crate for her. she's probably never learned to keep her sleeping area clean." Am thinking I had best buy the eBook. She also poops in crate (which is large enough for her to leave her bed to do it) after she has just been out and pooped on her walk.
I also looked at her the other day and said "why didn't you tell me you wanted to go out?!", then remembered that the former owner had had her "debarked". Awful.

Not only was she "de-barked," but she has no idea that you want to know when she needs to go out. Never has such an idea been introduced to her, and in fact the opposite has been her total experience.

If she is pooping after she was taken out to poop, then I'd say she wasn't out long enough, and also perhaps did not have enough moving around while she was out. (Exercise stimulates peristalsis, but not always instantly.)

I'm including the previous thread here, too .... http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=35350&page=1

I know tethering hasn't been followed perfectly and she has had chances to poop inside ... you probably know now that every chance she has to poop inside without being hustled outdoors and then praised and rewarded when she goes outdoors just reinforces her eight years of horrible "training."

This kind of terrible early "education" really requires persistence and really close attention for a while, until that lightbulb lights up over her head ... IME, it's the partying down when the potty happens outside that will finally trigger that connection.

Needless to say, anger around potty issues does nothing but confuse the dog and reinforce her desire to hide and potty.

It's hard, but yes, it CAN be done! (And I salute you for taking it on!)

P.S.

You mentioned taking a huge book and going outside with her for an extended period, and YES, this is exactly what I did when I went through this with a dog who had been crated almost 24/7 for many years.

I did of course keep one eye on her so I could react suitably (PARTY!) when she finally HAD to go, even though we were outside (which she did not understand was the right place).

I spent a long weekend that way, plus long periods outside for a week or so after that, before she started to really get it.

Oh, and the exercise could be gentle on-lead walking during cooler hours, and yes, I'd check with the vet about it because of her health issues.

Also, I noticed a comment about correcting after inappropriate potty. I don't do this. I believe pretty strongly that the dog doesn't connect a correction afterwards with the actual act (for anything, actually). This is almost the whole reason for the tethering and for not allowing the dog the opportunity to have indoor potty. This is why I scoop the dog outside at the very first potty-posture or circling or warnings, then praise and party for outdoor potty once I have her out there.



ETA
This is what a dog learns from corrections around potty -- that the human reacts badly around puddles and poop and so the best thing to do is hide to go potty.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

P.S.

You mentioned taking a huge book and going outside with her for an extended period, and YES, this is exactly what I did when I went through this with a dog who had been crated almost 24/7 for many years.

I did of course keep one eye on her so I could react suitably (PARTY!) when she finally HAD to go, even though we were outside (which she did not understand was the right place).

I spent a long weekend that way, plus long periods outside for a week or so after that, before she started to really get it.

Oh, and the exercise could be gentle on-lead walking during cooler hours, and yes, I'd check with the vet about it because of her health issues.

Also, I noticed a comment about correcting after inappropriate potty. I don't do this. I believe pretty strongly that the dog doesn't connect a correction afterwards with the actual act (for anything, actually). This is almost the whole reason for the tethering and for not allowing the dog the opportunity to have indoor potty. This is why I scoop the dog outside at the very first potty-posture or circling or warnings, then praise and party for outdoor potty once I have her out there.

Connie is 100% spot-on CORRECT If you do everything exactly as she says, with NO corrections for Any Accidents, and only HUGE Praise Parties with great TREATS for outside potty-going, then Constant Tethering while indoors, this WILL work !!! God bless You for adopting this POOR sweet dog -- Oh, do you use a "Potty Command" when you walk her outside (especially when you see she's starting to do her business) ??? It can be something simple like "Get Busy" ... The command works like the Pavlov's Dog experiment, where your WORDS actually TRIGGER their Physiological Response almost like magic.

It may help if you put the scent of her urine and stool outside where you want her to go.

That of another dog can also help because she should want to cover it with her's.

As per Connie, a dog has to understand what it is doing wrong in order to earn a correction OR right to earn praise for it.

If you correct for something even a min or two after the fact the dog only understands that you are unfair.

Nope, haven't 'corrected' her (unless "what the heck?" when I find poop in her dog bed in
the crate can be understood by her). I know she isn't responsible. She spends forever in the yard sitting at my feet and staring at me. Not sure how much time to alot to our efforts outside--I have to get to work. I don't mind staying out there with her now but when the temps hit -10 and more, I hope she develops some sense of urgency! I could never look at her little face and be irritated with her. Thank you for all the advice. Will do my best.

If you don't catch her in the act of going she absolutely does not understand what the correction is about!

That's a HUGE misunderstanding.

It's like coming home and finding trash all over the floor.

If you can't catch the dog in the act of knocking over the trash can it will never understand/learn what it did wrong.

It may learn to avoid you when the trash is on the floor but that dosn't mean it understands how it got there.

I know of a number of dogs that have learned to ring bells hung on the dog. Bells as in anything that rings when you move it.

There are many different ways for the dog to let you know it wants to go out without barking.

You are to be commended for your efforts on behalf of the dog.

It is almost as if you have a puppy that needs to be trained. Lots of awareness and communication and rejoicing when successful.

As with a puppy, initially it is watching all the time, at all times of the day and night, and a lot of lost sleep achieving the objectives.

Young, untrained dogs used to get my two hour schedule, which was every two hours outside regardless of day or night. Some long nights, and frustrations but eventually the lights went on.

It is really a matter of constant awareness and immediate reaction at the first hint of a possible issue. And abundant praise for successes and almost ignoring the mistakes.

Connie and Bob are always right on. Me, not so much.

Tethering works. Old dogs can absolutely be taught new tricks. Takes time, and patience, and awareness.

If the dog goes in a part of the crate, leaving room so as not to be soiled, why not try reducing the size of the crate in some way, to see if that encourages the dog to be more receptive to going out and or signaling the need.

Any port in a storm, said the pirate in a hurricane.

Two cents.

Mike, excellent point about making the sleeping area in the crate smaller.

I didn't give that a thought for an adult dog but I've done it lots for a puppy but starting with a large crate and putting a plywood wall in there to shorten the space.

I'm a bit confused about the advantage of the smaller crate? She poops right IN her dog bed and sleeps in it.....
We have had three consecutive successes this week (and parties on the street!)
Thanks everybody!