Thoughts on redirecting biting (clothing, legs, hands) with food? Or perhaps, when the pup chomps down on the leg of my shorts, commencing a marker training session?

My concern is, I don’t want her to think that through biting, she is causing a food reward to appear.

Hmmm

Interesting. Feed a dog to not feed on me.

I think training the NO command and a successful compliance response should be rewarded, and occasionally rewarded with a treat.

I've not seen where a strong NO compliance has a damping effect on prey drive. Or a command to release an object would dampen drive but I probably don't have the same long term expectations you have noted.

I'm not sure of a food distraction as a bite deterrent.

I too will be interested in responses to your question.

Interesting.

I'm with you on that Mike.

Depending on the dog I have often shoved a finger down their throat and acted like nothing happened.

this has been with some of the serious biting puppies I've owned, particularly a few of the terriers I've owned and one of my GSDs.

That GSD was my very special, now passed working line Thunder.

He could even get a bit aggressive with rough play and the finger in the throat stopped it after only 3-4 times.

Being involved in Schutzhund with him I was told that would ruin his desire to bite and grip.

Because ALL his training had been with marker, including his bite work he was rewarded when let go of me when biting as a puppy.

Never had an issue and he got his SCH III with VERY nice bite work.

His reward for the bite in Schutzhund was.......another bite.

Yes, I have had dogs that could easily be stopped with a firm "NO" but I keep all options in my tool box and all my puppies learn "NO" early.

My present working like GSD Trooper is about the most handler soft dog I've ever owned and at 11 1/2 he can still be crushed with a harsh word.

My thoughts on redirecting is that timing can be super critical otherwise the reward by distraction and a toy or treat can be misunderstood as a reward for biting.

Timing isn't always the best with new trainers.

Billboard quote!

"My thoughts on redirecting is that timing can be super critical otherwise the reward by distraction and a toy or treat can be misunderstood as a reward for biting."

Do you still have ten fingers, Bob? I've never heard about that trick before, but sounds very logical, only I wouldn't dare the risk when a dog is already in high drive.

Eric, I can only speak about what helped with my dogs. But maybe something can give you an idea. If not, then sorry. Just trying.

My Bruxinha was a little biter as a puppy, but of course she had to learn the meaning of No first with easier exercises, situations she learned quite quickly with a consistent No. With my lower drive Pit I had to teach her the No also, but in the beginning she also needed an action from my side = pushing her with my feet calmly out of my private space which I created around me. She learned to respect the space around me. Exception of course, when I allowd it. E.g. "Come here", "jump on my knees".

With my higher drive Pit it was very more difficult. Following a No was hopeless at the time, Different versions of redirections only made her think: "It's just a game. Probably I've done it the wrong way, I don't know.

Redirection I think is a good method, provided it is done correctly. There can be an misunderstanding if our timing is not exact.


Some day I read something which was meant especially against jumping on you, against biting and licking. They recommended to give the dog a hard beat with the knie in their chest,
They also recommended to do this several times in a row until the dog understands: Like this I will not reach my goal.

My problem: I hardly ever hit the right spot and also not strong enough, so it didn't impress her in the least,

After this i tried to find my way away from her with kicking and all kinds of fumbling. Again misunderstood as a game.

Then I began with ignoring completely, no look, no sound, no touch. It was difficult for some time. But now she gets no attention, in other words no form of reinforcement, Once I've reached my door or whatever and she had calmed down I put her in a sit stay and if she kept it for a good while she recieved her attention, petting, food, praise. Now i have no problems any more. She respects even the No.

Good morning Bob,

Yeah, the old fingers down the throat reaction to a gnawing puppy.

I think the question bears on the strength of the dog. A super high drive dog is not going to be dissuaded from serious training by learning some basic manners. A more timid dog has to handled with sensitivity but then, a timid dog is a poor candidate for high level training of the type originally posited.

Titan is a very family and people friendly GSD, and at 95 lbs and a German head, looks the part of serious dog, and is, in fact, an alpha, and not to be trifled with.

Sam is family friendly, not necessarily outside the pack inviting, and has the slimmer line look of an American GSD. He is powerful, and likes to carry chunks of log around the back yard.

Neither dog has a lower prey drive because of the boundaries I set and enforce for their living here and my providing for their every need.

Both dogs do rudimentary tracking and are very responsive or compliant with commands. All and all, they work for me.

I watch the cops work with their K-9s and they set boundaries for behaviors, none of which seem to minimize their dogs' effectiveness at achieving their primary purposes. In fact, I watched one dog appear to be a laid back pet in pre training time, and when worked was by far and away the most formidable dog in the group of about 14 dogs and handlers. So, setting behavior boundaries didn't seem to impede the dog's drive in the slightest. It got my full attention.

I am not a corporal or revenge correction fellow. I have used strong measures to address absolutely undesirable behavior but in a last resort context. And my experience with dogs that seem to require more attention is that their spirit remains intact and their drive is still high even when conditioned to unwanted behaviors, such as not biting me. Doesn't seem to slow down a dog with the right drive wiring to have to adapt to the rules of the house.

I got Sam, a rescue, too late for the fingers down the throat. Figured he'd just chow down on mine if I tried. A few serious bites and resulting serious corrections has conditioned Sam to not bite members of the family. Enough said.

Anyway, too long a ramble. I type too fast, and have a too imaginative stream of consciousness. Mea culpa.

 Quote: Mike Arnold

Good morning Bob,

Yeah, the old fingers down the throat reaction to a gnawing puppy.

I think the question bears on the strength of the dog. A super high drive dog is not going to be dissuaded from serious training by learning some basic manners. A more timid dog has to handled with sensitivity but then, a timid dog is a poor candidate for high level training of the type originally posited.

Titan is a very family and people friendly GSD, and at 95 lbs and a German head, looks the part of serious dog, and is, in fact, an alpha, and not to be trifled with.

Sam is family friendly, not necessarily outside the pack inviting, and has the slimmer line look of an American GSD. He is powerful, and likes to carry chunks of log around the back yard.

Neither dog has a lower prey drive because of the boundaries I set and enforce for their living here and my providing for their every need.

Both dogs do rudimentary tracking and are very responsive or compliant with commands. All and all, they work for me.

I watch the cops work with their K-9s and they set boundaries for behaviors, none of which seem to minimize their dogs' effectiveness at achieving their primary purposes. In fact, I watched one dog appear to be a laid back pet in pre training time, and when worked was by far and away the most formidable dog in the group of about 14 dogs and handlers. So, setting behavior boundaries didn't seem to impede the dog's drive in the slightest. It got my full attention.

I am not a corporal or revenge correction fellow. I have used strong measures to address absolutely undesirable behavior but in a last resort context. And my experience with dogs that seem to require more attention is that their spirit remains intact and their drive is still high even when conditioned to unwanted behaviors, such as not biting me. Doesn't seem to slow down a dog with the right drive wiring to have to adapt to the rules of the house.

I got Sam, a rescue, too late for the fingers down the throat. Figured he'd just chow down on mine if I tried. A few serious bites and resulting serious corrections has conditioned Sam to not bite members of the family. Enough said.

Anyway, too long a ramble. I type too fast, and have a too imaginative stream of consciousness. Mea culpa.

I'm with Connie here on giving a BIG "thumbs up" to the posts above by Bob & Mike !!! EXCELLENT mentoring, as always, THANKS

I do not use food to redirect for being mouthy. I simply want to redirect that energy onto an apapropriate surface, not extinguish it.

I prefer not to use NO for being mouthy - again, I don’t want to extinguish that energy, I just want to rechannel it. I use NO as an absolute - meaning they stop whatever they are doing and wait for further instruction.... typically I only use it when there is danger to the dog, like she is eating rocks or something like that.

I do not believe the pup will see redirection as a reward for being mouthy or chewing on my pants.... my timing is such that the reward is for letting go of whatever the pup is chewing on. So, if the pup is biting on my pants leg, I will freeze my leg, grab the material so that the puppy can’t self satisfy by pulling on it. As soon as the puppy loosens the grip - even just a tiny little bit, I break out the tug. If the puppy is biting on my hand, I make my hand still and as soon as I see the puppy look up to find something more interesting, or loosen her grip on my hand, I break out the toy.

I use this as the foundation of my OUT command, and my dogs have all had perfect OUTS.

Puppies have the attention span of gnats. If it’s not moving and being fun, the puppy will lose interest really fast. So, when the puppy is biting your hands, you have to try to not move them away from her - make them still and she will lose interest. There may be a bit of a waiting game and you will have to wait her out for this to work.

In a perfect world, you would be able to get the puppy tugging on a toy BEFORE she decides to chew on you, but that doesn’t always happen. That’s why I keep tugs and toys all over- if the pup gets that look like she wants to go for my arm or pants, I get her pulling on a tug first.

Some people say that giving a yelp when the puppy bites works, but in my mind, that puts you on the same level as a litter mate that got nipped too hard when playing. I don’t want the puppy viewing me at anytime as a littermate, but that is just me- do whatever works for you and your dog.

Some people use a light aversive like Bob does when he sticks his finger down the throat. It makes the puppy think that this game is not as fun anymore and maybe she should stop. Again, this isn’t something that I do, but there are no hard and fast rules to dog training, so do whatever will work for you and your dog....

I just mention what I do with my dogs, it works for me and them.... but each trainer is different, and each puppy is different. Try some methods as see what works best for your pup.

Ed wrote an article that may be of interest... http://leerburg.com/bitingpuppies.htm

Good luck and have fun with the pup!

ETA this question was in regards to a 9 week old pup. Obviously, protocol is much different with an older dog that is being mouthy or aggressive.....

Great, helpful responses by you all.

I have had and trained dogs my entire (long now) life. I am not a novice to training but am to one in regards to protection sport. I have always used methods similar to Bob and Mike. They have served me well with high drive dogs (many Rotts, a Rhodesian Ridgeback and a Presa Canario).

I ask the question for my 9 week old pup bc Michael Ellis (whom I respect immensely) recommended against corrections for biting. The concern being that she may become hesititant to bite if corrected (with my last dog, i used “NO” and a fingernail to the bottom or roof of her mouth). If redirection continues to fail (perhaps I should say if I continue to fail with redirection), I may try mild corrections, a “no” at first. Along with her high bite/prey drive, RandD is very smart and bold. She is not easily spooked or dissuaded from what she wants. If it comes to it, I think she could handle the mild correction. I think (hope) she is smart enough to be able to distinguish between not biting me (or my clothing) and biting toys, tugs and eventually others in sleeves or suits.

Thank you again for your thoughtful and insightful comments.

Great, helpful responses by you all.

I have had and trained dogs my entire (long now) life. I am not a novice to training but am to one in regards to protection sport. I have always used methods similar to Bob and Mike. They have served me well with high drive dogs (many Rotts, a Rhodesian Ridgeback and a Presa Canario).

I ask the question for my 9 week old pup bc Michael Ellis (whom I respect immensely) recommended against corrections for biting. The concern being that she may become hesititant to bite if corrected (with my last dog, i used “NO” and a fingernail to the bottom or roof of her mouth). If redirection continues to fail (perhaps I should say if I continue to fail with redirection), I may try mild corrections, a “no” at first. Along with her high bite/prey drive, RandD is very smart and bold. She is not easily spooked or dissuaded from what she wants. If it comes to it, I think she could handle the mild correction. I think (hope) she is smart enough to be able to distinguish between not biting me (or my clothing) and biting toys, tugs and eventually others in sleeves or suits.

Thank you again for your thoughtful and insightful comments.