Due to the fact that you don´t know really what´s going to happen on a belgium/mondio-ring trail compared to other protectionsports where the exersizes are always the same I guess this must be one of the most, if not the most demanding protectionsport. I would guess only real good dogs could rise to the top in these sports. Any thougts on this?

Someone once made the comment to me that in Mondio Ring, a lot of the pressure on the dog comes from the enviornment, while in Sch the pressure comes from the man. Makes a lot of sense, because the sterility of the Sch field forces the dog to focus on the fight, at least it should, instead of going through distractions that put pressure on the dog's nerves in order to get a bite; hence you see the caliber of the dog's courage, not just how much it wants to tackle it's prey.

Not to say only one type of dog will succeed in each sport, prey vs. fight, or that a prey dominate dog can succeed only in Ring sport, and a defense/fight dominate dog can succeed in Sch. I'm just making observations, and going by what I've heard/seen (mostly heard <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ).

That is an interesting question tho, because my next dog will be a high level dog (I hope), and I am thinking about which venue to pursue, which will challenge the dog in all areas, prey and fight. Does Ring sport also challenge the dog's ability to stay in the fight, or as they say take the fight to the man?

Or am I gonna have to creat a new dog sport, created for the ultimate working dog, that combines the pressure of Sch, with the distractions of Mondio? Would KPNV fit the bill? Do people do this in the States?

You were commenting on your views of the different sports. I train Belgian ring, I will be competing towards the end of this year in NVBK-America, and the latter part of next year will be competing in Belgium. With SCH a dog can go through the entire routine in prey drive. If the dog has weak nerves all you have to do is repetion after rep of the same thing, with the same helper to get the dog comfortable with the routine, then slowly start him on to different fields, and different helpers. With Belgian Ring, your dog must be balanced in all. A dog cannot go through a belgian ring routine off of just prey, he is enviromentally challenged to hard by the decoy. Sure it's objects the decoy uses, but a dog that is ready to compete in NVBK is fully aware that it's the person behind those distractions. Also, by there being less movement by the decoy and more or a stand ground and fight, there is less prey instinct verses the prey running away as in fleeing attacks, and alot of escaping movements. However, the dog must possess a high prey drive to want to get his reward which is a bite, but the nerves and fight to withstand the pressure he must endure to get his reward. Ed Frawley said it best about Schutzund when he stated that the only true defense of Sch is the bark and hold, but even that can be done successfully with enough repetitions and worked in prey. I'v seen Sch dogs that freaked out at some of the challenges from a NVBK decoy, but on the sch courage test the dog went in hard. Thats because the dog see's the helper as someone helping to get his prey item to him. Sch only uses the sleeve, so the dog can be in prey after his sleeve the whole time. In NVBK, the dog has to be less equipment focused do to the biting of a bite suit, but dogs can still get focused on the bite suit, that is why the dog is challenged by a street clothed decoy in object guard where the dog is wearing a muzzle. If your dog is all in prey and no civil he will not execute a civil object guard with muzzle. If I pick up a tire iron and beat a dog with it, that dog is not going to be pissed at the tire iron he will be pissed at me. Go and hit a dog a few times with something (not literally <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ) and see if he goes after just the object, he is aware that the object is a mere extention of you. Also, in Sch there is a limited amount of hits the helper can put on your dog, in Belgian ring the decoy has free play with stick hits, if he feels your dog is week with being hit with objects he will exploit your dog that way. A dog may have nerves to withstand 3hits but will he break if hit with a non-padded stick up to 50 times in a little more than a minute. That happend to A-Tim in a trial, and he didn't break. You can break a dogs prey drive by hitting it or what have you, but with a dog in true fight drive, your only increasing the fight in the dog. A real bad guy will not be hitting your dog with a padded stick (don't we wish) he will be using whatever he can find to get your dog off, NVBK uses that theory, also, believe it or not not all suspects just run from the dogs, alot of drugies feel they can stand toe to toe with the dog, so what happens when the bad guy is cornered in a garage with all kinds of crap to use against your dog, will the dog back off if it's not a Sch stick and doesn't see a sleeve. I'm not implying Sch dogs can't handle NVBK but there is a whole lot that couldn't, on the other hand how many NVBK dogs can handle the pressure of Schutzund, I would venture to say a dog that is ready for an NVBK trial won't have a problem at all with the "pressure" of Sch. Though NVBK is not flashy in OB like Schutzund. However, NVBK was made to be more realistic. For instance by not having my dog staring at my nose the whole time in heel, he is aware of threats, and I can walk him in heel all day long, as long as he pays attention to ME and his surroundings, and stays glued to my left leg. Checkout NVBK-AMERICA <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Where is the pressure in shutzhund again??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

The whole point of the distractions is to test their courage. The "sterility" you talk about is less pressure, get it? "less" pressure. Nothing wrong with Shutzhund, but a lot of dogs can bite a sleeve, not so many the leg. When you talk about pressure on a leg bite I can pull the dog under my body which is big time pressure. when a dog looks up, there is an entire torso with the decoy staring down at him. Schutzhund doesn't have this. Shutzhund is a breed test for german shepherds, ring sport is for mals.
Chris, my biggest fear is that in an attempt to make the sport "harder" America will screw up the ring sports by over emphasizing the OB routines. ( like the whole thing isn't one anyway )

Are the dogs conditioned from a young age to the different manuevers by the decoy? In prey drive? Are the dogs worked, in prey drive, around the distractions, from the get go, as puppies and young dogs?

My point in my post was that all the different dog sports have different types of pressure. In Sch, or any sport, ideally with a good, talented helper, which is about as rare as the Hope diamond, can put pressure on the dog no matter what the enviornment or lack of.

I am sure that there are dogs that work and are trained only in prey in all different sports; once the dog is off the streets it becomes a sport anyway, no matter how we try to contrive to make it real. Success in the sports are the goal for sport dogs, the foundation work for PD and PPD.

So in reference to Stig's question, even if the exercises are the same, a dog with weak nerves would not be able to handle the pressure from a good helper. You see a defense based response, either they run off the field, or the bites are shallow, with the hair up. You can condition, condition, condition, but at the slightest real threat, which is the whole point anyway, current politics aside, bam the dog is gone. Yes with high drive dogs, you can disguise that, and work in prey all the time, but not at the upper levels of the sport, only at the club level.

Dog sport should be unifying, not polarizing. Perhaps a sport in which the sport people can compete at the lower levels, and then a stake out test, for which no conditioning can be programmed into the dog, for which the dog has to pass in order to continue to the next level? That way people with excellent dogs and people with not so good dogs can participate. At the lower levels, the point would be to build up the dog, then the higher levels would be to challenge the dog in all areas. That way people will be more motivated to get good dogs, not point dogs, and the various breeds benefit.


Hope I don't get slammed by posting in a topic I have little, if any, practical knowledge in, so take it easy on me... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Besides, we know what the ultimate dog sport is....

Flyball! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I too believe that flyball is the ultimate. Two hours of training and I am done. Where is my title? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Melissa,
I will take my chances against a Schutzund dog anyday than to gamble on if I can get this NVBK dog to break camp. Wouldn't want to chance a schutzund dog either, but if I had to I'd bet I could run the schutzund dog off faster than a NVBK dog. NVBK was invented with practicality in mind. Jeff, so far the only sport I know that requires an unrealistic heel is schutzund, I would like to see a dog do a 8hour foot patrol in heel like schutzund. The purpose of heel is to have control of my dog so that he is not pulling me like an idiot, and he is to my left side because Most a majority of people are right handed and my weapon will be holstered on my right side. Furthermore I can walk my NVBK dog in heel as long as I can walk. Your right we tend to mess things up but as long as you maintain the integrity of the EU programs, we should be ok. Then Schutzund dogs will continue to be the ones required to perform ballet on the field, I just want my dog to work and I don't mean on Broadway! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

A question- is the primary difference berween BR and NVBK the papers for the dog, or are there other differences? I know that NVBK is foundational training for the Dutch police, what about BR? Does it have the object guard? Is muzzle training incoporated in anthing else?

So tell me if I have this right: NVBK=sport with an eye toward the dog going on to do street work (with additional training of course); Ring/Sch=breed suitablity test, with an empasis on sport, and some dogs with this background/temperment quality can go on to do street work.

The heel in Sch is, IMO, actually two types of heeling with the same name. The heel in OB, which is the ballet (do you have any idea how demanding/difficult ballet really is; actually a good analogy, it must look effortless, be in perfect sychronization with the partner, and is utterly unnatural) and the heel in protection, and they serve two different functions. Ob heeling shows focus on handler, biddability, and so forth, (and it is purdy to watch <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ); Protection heeling demonstrates control. The dog in the trial field knows which heeling he is doing, because you train it. Of course no one walks around heeling with their dog staring at their face; it is primarily an attention/focus exercise. If the dog is trained right, heeling in protection is actually easier to teach, because the drive is higher, so the corrections can be harder, and there is immediate feedback about correct positioning. Ob heeling is difficult; timing must be perfect, and it is a combo of many types of behaviours all rolled into one.

Do you find a lot of GSD in Ring/NVBK, or do you find the sport is mostly Mals/DS?

Melissa,
NVBK is a registry that broke away from ST. Hubert, because these people thought that ST. Hubert was going in the way of say, AKC. Not really to that extreme, but starting to look more at looking pretty and softning up on the dogs. This registry in turn came up with Belgian Ring which they wanted to be both sport and practical, and with their own theories on how a program should test realistically for dogs that could work real world they came up with This program. NVBK is Belgian Ring, they are not two different bodies. You are correct about the muzzle work, and about the German Shepards. There are a few theories as to the GSD not being significant players in NVBK depends of course on who you ask. For one the constant palisade training and all jumps is difficult for GSD because of their size, it wreaks havoc on their hips and joints. Others, some in EU and some here have been heard saying many outstanding GSD lacked the drive to work for 45min-1hour straight with no breaks in between any event. Unlike Schutzund where at the very top level Mals are forbidden to trial, at the top levels of NVBK it is open to them, but none (to my knowledge, and if I'm wrong I honestly would want to know.) have titled in the upper ranks for sure, I have heard that no GSD ever titled in NVBK though I cannot confirm that and would be intersted to know. Even if it is difficult for most, I can't see NO GSD ever passing. To answer you question finally, LOL no you hardly see GSD in the sport of NVBK. IMO a dog must be in training for NVBK from birth or he will not succeed in it, it could happen as anything is possible and the impossible will always happen one day, but it is extremely difficult to change a dog later on to NVBK training. That is why Belgian ring is not as popular in the states I think. Because, for one it takes along time to get to your first trial, and most people who find out about it are already involved in a different sport and like I said it is hard to transition to NVBK, so people just stick to what they were doing. The most realistic and I believe the actual hardest sport out there is KNPV, OMG! , and that is exactly why it will never get off the ground here in the states. It's to hard. I had a bunch of people locally saying they wanted to do something different besides schutzund, when I got them out there and started showing them how to train NVBK I'll let you ask me how many of them are still asking to train NVBK, and I'll quote one of them,

 Quote:

Geez, that is way to hard!!

KNPV is the ultimate test of a dog and trainer IMO. I have respect for anyone who trains that sport, I would love to in the future, but I would venture to say I'd need about 3 dogs to title one, 2 to mess up and 1 to actually get it right on, LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />