Hi all

I was wondering if anyone can tell me whether Livestock guardian dogs( for eg Anatolians , Maremmas) kill their predators in prey or defensive drive. I read on a article on the Leerburg website that these dogs kill predators in prey drive????? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> This really confuses me because Livestock guardian dogs have very little prey drive so they won't be a danger to the sheep. And throw at tennis ball at them and their unlikely to chase it, having no inheret desire to do so.

Also when these guys see a predator for example a wolf, their first instinct is too warn the wolf away not chase it. If the wolf does not go away and tries to come in close and attack the herd the Maremmas for example will be defensive then and try to kill the wolf. If the wolf gets away they are not going to chase it but remain with the herd, unless the wolf comes back. Now please correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't a dog that has high prey drive run after the wolf???
These livestock guardian dogs i thought couldn't be trained in bite work because they have little prey drive and are way to powereful and serious.
If they had the kinda prey drive to kill a wolf wouldn't they have enough prey drive to do schutzhund??????or bitework. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Here is an extract from an article on the lerrburg website, hope Ed doesn't mind me doing this.

http://www.leerburg.com/def-frst.htm

Can someone tell me what Ed means in this article <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Especially the part where it is written that these dogs won't do a defensive bark and hold and the part where it says they have a different defense to the dogs that do protection work <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

There are a group of people on PD-L who have herding dogs (Border Collies, Great Peryanese) that have recently claimed that because their dogs are so aggressive towards predators, they must have defense. After all if a dog will protect the flock and kill a coyote, how can that dog not have defense.
Well, to be totally truthful these animals do not have defense (not the defense we are talking about in protection training). These dogs kill predators in prey drive. To them the predator is prey, just like to the predator the sheep are prey. There is not difference. This is why these dogs (BC, Pryanese and others like them) will not do a defensive bark and hold in front of a helper. They lack defense.

I honestly don't really get what Ed's saying there. I think he's just trying to point out the differences in temperament between livestock guardian type dogs and dogs capable of manwork. Their defensive behaviors are a bit different than what we want to see in a sport dog or a police dog. Maybe what he should have said is that those breeds lack active defense, and/or fight drive.

Livestock guardians make for terrible Schutzhund dogs and worse police dogs because they lack the prey drive for the work, they lack the fight drive to want to seek out the bad guy at take the fight to him, and they lack the correct type of pack behaviors, intelligence, and willingness for the obedience and teamwork that is necessary. This is from my personal experience having been around a number of them. . .including dogs in Bulgaria actually working, guarding sheep.

If a livestock dog could actually chase down a predatory animal and kill it, it probably would most likely do so in weak prey drive. Fact of the matter is that these types of dogs rarely will need to combat a predator, and will practically never chase one down and kill it. Predators are by nature cowards, and in the face of a possible fight, the reward of food is rarely worth the possibility of injury. An injury usually means slow death after the fact. Livestock dogs will bluff their way out of problems 99.9% of the time. Even large animals like bears will stay away from two or three barking and circling dogs. In such a confrontation, the dog would be working in weak prey and in reactive defense. You'd have to have some experience seeing hunting dogs corner and fight game to understand what I'm saying. I bet the confrontation would be similar, but with a lot less desire on the dog's part to make contact with the predator. (weaker prey instincts, weak fight drive)


I'm sure I'll get tons of resistance from various people that will disagree with my assessment of livestock dogs, but I'm going to assume that's what Ed was getting at. . .and that was your question.

Hi Robert

I agree with what you are saying, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> they do bluff their way out of trouble 99% of the time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> and I understnad how it is very different to police dogs. These dogs don't go looking for trouble but will face it when it comes. I mean I've never heard of these dogs running away from trouble with their tail between their legs.

I guess reactive defense is more reluctant and active more confident and that's why it's asssociated with fight drive????? Just guessing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

In south Africa the Cheetah conservation project supplies Anatolian shepherds to Farmers. This is in hope that the famers will stop shooting the endangered cheetahs as they have their anatolians to protect the herd.
Here's a story about Birinci's Flintis that I think explains pretty well the inheret desire that livestock guardians have in defending their charges. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

http://www.luckyhit.net/anatflin.htm

I was in Alberta this summer doing a herding clinic and they had a very freindly guardian dog. It was with us most of the time and I was wondering if it would actually do anything if there was trouble. The next day, however, it showed me differently. We had several packs of coyotes around and you could hear them chatting to each other constantly. This dog was on "alert" all day. He told us before we could even see or imagine when a coyote was close by. He was out in the feild constantly with the sheep and watching for the 'packs'. He ventured farther out when needed and he was ready for a fight if that was going to happen!

There are many guardian dogs that never 'make' it as such because they have too much prey drive and/or they were not brought up properly with the sheep. They are suppose to stay with the sheep and protect them at all costs. So, yes, they will go venture out and show they are there. They do warn them with thier bark and presence and will attack if they need to. BUT, they are suppose to stay with the flock of sheep...not chase after to hunt down and kill. When they are brought up properly, they see the 'sheep'as thier pack and thier job is to protect this, not run after prey.

As Robert mentions, most preditors are actually quite cowardly (unless they are used to being fed or around man). I came home once to see my flock of sheep out in the middle of the large feild. WHen I looked closely, I noticed a 'sheep' that I did not recognize right beside the rest of the sheep. At first, I though it was one of my neighbor's sheep. When I looked closer, I saw it was a coyote. My sheep could have cared less that it was there. He was eating the apples on the ground that had fallen off the tree. I yelled at the coyote and it just looked up but didn't budge. Even as I started to approach it didn't move (my stupid sheep were just looking at me). I finally went and got Cheyenne (one of my gsd's) out and sent her into the feild to get the sheep. As soon as she stepped into the feild, the coyote quietly trotted off and my sheep 'flew' into the pen were I was.

Packs of coyotes WILL try and lure a dog to follow/chase them and they take it to the pack. Many a dog has been 'lost' this way. That is one of the reason's why it is important for the guardian dog to stay with the flock.

Van Camp mentioned that

 Quote:

Livestock guardians make for terrible Schutzhund dogs and worse police dogs because ... they lack the fight drive to want to seek out the bad guy (and) take the fight to him....

Van Camp, I'm still working on understanding defense drive. (Yeah, another one of THOSE questions....please be patient.) The behavior of some guardian dogs is one of the reasons. As you say, they lack fight and prey drive, and would be terrible in a Sch or police K9 role. But while, in their protective role, they will show stress, there will also be (in the best of them) a steadfastness that fear can't penetrate, about taking the fight to the offender. They can be unyielding about protecting their charges. They're in defense, but forget "fight or flight"; they just WON'T run away. (Think maybe of Alexander's war dog, which fought an elephant in his defense.)

So I can't wrap my mind around the idea of characterizing defense drive in some of these dogs in terms of fear. Stress, certainly. Fear???

It won't do to say that their courage overcomes their fear; we would not generally be happy to talk about courageous dogs as fearful, and vice versa.

Are you and others getting at something like this with talk about "active" and "reactive" defense?

I think the thing to remember is that the "drives" that describe working GSD behavior are not always completely useful for understanding or describing the behavior of other breeds. Think of it as being the Language of the GSD; it does not always translate well into the language of other breeds.

The drives are nothing but descriptions that allowed trainers to build a vocabulary to assist them with their training. As the GSD progressed these descriptions became definitions. They became definitions because people would breed for things that fit the descriptions. That is why I call it the language of the GSD, it is something they were bred to fit into.

For example if we look at dogs defending the flock and not running after other prey. You might as well call that "flock drive". The dogs that run away/chase/or don't defend don't get bred. The guy doing that breeding is not going to try and break it down further by trying to figure out what is prey/fight drive. It would serve no purpose and would not help him much in making breeding decisions. His decisions are based on what he sees as "flock drive". In the same way, us trying to explain those behaviors in terms of prey/fight only gives us a small insight in the larger more complex behavior. Another way to think of it is that you can breed for "flock drive" and get dogs out of it they can be further bred for prey/fight drive. But it is near impossible to go the other way, you could breed for all sort of various prey and fight drives and never get a dog with "flock drive"

The reason the GSD descriptions are useful is because GSD's have been breed to fit those descriptions, so they are a good tool to explain GSD behavior. But, for that reason, trying to explain the behaviors of other breeds, using the GSD descriptions, just never gives a complete picture. It does however give elements of the picture. So if your trying to understand the GSD lingo, it is best explained/understood when using GSD’s as examples.

Well.....to further complicate things. One thing the gsd is used for in herding IS to keep away predators (man and animal). They are SUPPOSE to also have 'flock' drive <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> in that they may investigate and may chase off but should also stay with thier flock doing thier job. In this you want the gsd to see the flock as a flock and not individual animal. It is one thing I look for when looking at gsd's and testing them. Do they want to keep the sheep flocked together or do they zone in on one and go for it.

A LOT of what we are talking about is also training. Guardian dogs are also trained to stay with the flock. They are WITH the flock from a VERY young age (if the breeder has sheep it may even be from birth) or 7-9 wks...whenever you get the pup. Guardian dogs that work in thier 'prey' drive are corrected. They are not allowed to chase, nip etc the sheep. (gsd's are also trained and corrected when necessary with the sheep).

Guardian dogs do have a much higher 'defence' drive. It is often why they do NOT make great pets and are not always the freindliest with other dogs. It might even be hard in today's world to "see" this as breeders are no longer breeding for the guardian traits per say but breeding for the 'show' ring. Thus you will see much freindlier, less defensive dogs (so they can also sell them as pets). However, it is not the original breeding purposes/traits. It can be just as hard to find a good guardian dog is it might be to find a good gsd for 'real' work. If you read about the guardian breeds you will see that YEARS ago they were very high in thier defence drive. However, they also were left to wander in LARGE areas with thier sheep...they needed to be like this. In today's world...a dog like this could be a liability. Our dogs are in much closer contact with humans (other than those known in thier 'pack'.) So....many of the guardian breeds are more 'watered'down versions of the 'past'.

Here is a quote from an article that I have read:

The Mark-Warn-Chase-Attack sequence that serves
to keep livestock safe from wolves must be truncated after the Warning
behavior if the dog's owners are to remain safe from charges of harboring a
vicious dog. The sharp temperament that indicated a good working dog in the
high mountains finds little place in a family whose members freely bring
strangers to trespass the dog's territory."


Now, each guardian breed also has it's indivdial traits/temperament. The Pyranees is a breed that is 'known' to be one of the 'freindlier' guardian breeds (to people and other animals).

Traits that are often looked for in guardian dogs are referred to as "Responsibility" (the tendency to remain with the livestock) and "Reportability" (regular checking-in with the human caretaker of the flock.)

I don't know how valid the argument is for the GSD needing to guard the flock from predation. Human theives and hooligans there is ample proof of, predators there really isn't. . .other than a few stray dogs.

If the gsd is used in the tending there are no fences. They are usually worked on large flocks. Shepherds (people) may have to leave the flock and dog working them to go tend to a hurt sheep/lamb etc. THey may leave thier dog in 'charge' for several hours without any human supervision. You bet there will be predators of animal kind.

Maybe Ellen can comment further on this...and her dogs. I have had coyotes come into the area where my sheep are and my dogs are the deterant to get them away. (coyotes are too familiar with 'humans' and don't respect them for the most part'. )

As far as a 'few stray dogs'. MOST sheep these days are LOST to dogs and dog packs. They are known and referred to as predators amoung sheep people. I know for myself I worry more about stray dogs than I do coyotes (except for at the moment with a strong coyote pack in my neighborhood). I have lost 2 lambs in the last 2 months to coyotes. Unfortunately, my sheep are on a freinds property for the winter....(big barn for lambing) thus my dogs are not always around to keep the coyotes away. Predators are a huge problem to most sheep farmers. If they weren't....we wouldn't need guardian dogs , donkeys, llamas etc. It is a conversation and topic that comes up every month at sheep meetings. How to keep preditors away.

But for the last 200 or so years in most all of Western Europe there have been no predators. The developed rural areas where one needs and uses a tending dog completely lack any predatory animals, other than a few stray dogs. It was not a factor in breeding the GSD for generations and generations.

North America. . .lots of predators. Western Europe. . .predators systematically killed off by the biggest predator of all. . .us. LOL

I'm quite sure it wasn't something that was on the table when a shepherd sat down to consider breeding X female to Y male.

Of course a nice dog will go toe-to-toe with another stray dog trying to mess with his flock or his territory, we all know that.

Western European shepherds generally phased out their use of flock guarding type dogs because there was nothing to defend from. Only in more remote areas and in the South and East, where you may still see wolves and the like, do/did shepherds continue to keep these dogs.

That's why breeds like the Owczarek Podhalanski are basically extinct. Polish flock guardian dog. The Germans used similar dogs in the 1700s, but they began to disappear as the predators were killed off. We don't even know what they called them now cuz nobody desired to form them as a breed and keep them as pets. That's a large dog to keep around for no good reason, especially when there are so many herding/droving dogs that do the work that was necessary at the time AND were great PPDs and PSDs. Who by default would also keep the few predatious dogs away from the sheep if need be.

It's a nice benefit that GSDs do have some guarding and territorial instincts which make them useful in your situation. I'm arguing that those benefits are there because of some of the other traits we breed the dogs for. Not because GSDs were bred or selected to protect flocks from predation.

In fact with the traits most good GSDs have, I wouldn't want to put him in that position. The North American predators are pretty nasty, and just about any one of them can eat our GSDs for breakfast. They don't seem to have the good sense to threaten and back off, to threaten and back off, to threaten and bite if attacked and back off . . .all while keeping themselves between the mean animal and the sheep. That's generally how flock guardians work.