Hi all !!

I got the Flinks video Drive, Focus, Grip very nice and Ed does a really good job of putting it together for us. I have a 10 month old GSD with low drive, my question is does anyone know how long it should take on the norm to see results in the dog? I know all dogs are different, but if I don't see a improvement in a month or so is that ok ? I have been working with my dog for about 4 dyas now and it is too early to tell I think?
I am new to the dog training thing and would appreciate any advice that I can get.

Thanks, Mike Reagan <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Mike, please don't repeat posts in several different threads. Someone will get to your original post eventually.

If you are correct in saying that your dog has low drive, you may never see an improvement. If it is a matter of the drive being there, but you haven't developed it as the dog has grown it should show up rather quickly. Some dogs will never be able to be trained by this method and are better suited to food.

Ooops my bad !! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I was not sure which thread to put it in.

Deanna let me get this straight I am not sure that I understand what you are saying? if my dog has low drive it will never get into a high drive? with time and doing the flink methods? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Mike Reagan

Mike, think of drive like this...

If you don't like meatloaf, no matter how many times someone shoves it in your face, you still won't like meatloaf.

Prey drive is genetic. With training you can bring the dog to its genetic potential, but you will never be able to create more than what was determined in the breeding shed.

I agree with both of you.

The dog's drive is a genetically predetermined factor. However, if the dog's drives were latent because Mike wasn't working him in the right exercises or with the right toys, his drive display could improve. This happened with my rescue GSD, who initially had displayed very very low drive for a ball. Now he's a nutjob-showing promising hunting instinct, great focus, etc. This was done through a combination of restricting access to the ball, focus exercises, and OB training. It took about 2-4 weeks to see real improvement, and it's still developing 8 weeks later.

So yes, your dog will only have "X" amount of drive, no matter what. But another thing is certain, too. If you follow the Flinks tape, you'll find out how much "X" is.

Yes, maybe I should have made that a little more clear. My dog is a perfect example of what you just talked about. I got him at six months old and he was a stray. He was not interested in toys at all, but once I flipped the switch in his little pea brain he turned into a maniac. For him, it took less than a week, your mileage may vary.

As long as the dog is sound, (as in mind) drives can be built to sufficient levels. Just for kicks, I helped work with three dogs that had no interest in a ball. By gradually cultivating their low drive with drive building exercises, we were able to make them ball-crazy. All three went on to become good narcotics canines with strong active indications.

A person learns a lot from these training experiences when they have the desire to do all that it takes to build the dog to a working level.

Working great dogs with great drives is easy compared with using thought and knowledge and sometimes a lucky ‘educated’ guess to build a dog that would otherwise never be a choice for certain tasks.

This is perhaps why most of the best handler/trainers do not train the best as much as they find them and own them. They know they can bring certain dogs along better then others and consider anything less then top notch a waste of time and effort.

It is, if you look at dollar value but it is not if you look at training skill and experience value.
Deanna mentioned her dog flipped on like a switch and her example seems to hold up in other dogs from my experience.

There does seem to be a difference in the drive thresholds of dog that have innately high drives and those who are built however. While in many cases the difference may not be distinguishable.

In the end I advise all who have low drive dogs to think of their dog as a learning opportunity where you learning from him as much as he will learn from you.

You will benefit from this greatly though you may never have the best dog it is still possible you have become a good trainer.

Good luck.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dennis-

That's exactly how we view our current GSD. He may or may not become competition-worthy. In either case, I'm learning about the training process from him. When (if?) the time comes, we'll look at investing in a dog that has demonstrated drives.

I'd be very interested in the exercises you mentioned in developing your narcotics dogs, though. I'm guessing the Flinks video is a good place to start. I'm stepping up the frustration a little with Konig right now, and he's getting more and more drivey-OB is speeding up, grip is firming, starting to vocalize more.

I think you're right about the learning process, and hope I'm becoming a good trainer. Based solely on the experience I've obtained in the last 4 months, I can say with certainty that a dog with pronounced drives would have been wasted on me at the time we got Konig.

Thank you all !!

I now feel like there is hope I am not a expert trainer by far infact I am very new to training and love challenges. I did feel strong that if a dog has NO drive then you have nothing to work with, but if a dog has low drive it is something to start and hopefully build to a high drive, that is the reason for my initial question and evryone who posted gave me a different way to look at my dog's situation he is only 10 months old he is still young.

Again I would like to thak everyone who has posted on my question <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mike Reagan

Building Chase Behavior

Often we as trainers and behavior specialist will use what the dog is most natural to the dog to support or influence areas we perceive as lacking.

Building prey drive is no exception. Most dogs like to control things (domination) if given half a chance. The key to building prey drive is teaching the dog about his ability to force and action. In his mind to dominate the ball bounce or the helper movement.

Have your dog placed in an isolated area on a flat collar and tie-out. He should be on a 4-foot line that will create a feeling of isolation and some anxiety about his short movement area when you leave.

He needs to be tied next to a wall that you can bounce a tennis ball between the two of you.

Tie the dog out and leave him for 5-10 minutes but no more then this. Be certain he is out of the sun in warm weather.) Bring with you a tennis ball and come within 10 feet of your dog. Do not indicate any acknowledge of him but bounce the ball one time and see and look for any response.

By any, I mean whines silent bark action a bark. While he could be doing all of the above because of separation anxiety in time, he will see this game.

The game continues.

After one bounce see if he responds. If he does bounce it again. Look and listen.
On the third time as soon as he whines barks or “half-barks”, bounce the ball against the wall fast and hard and scramble to get it. Leave the training area, out of sight, again for 5 minutes.

Repeat all one to two more times and stop training. Don’t over train this!

In 3-4 days in the same area, you should be able to show the dog your ball and he will bark to make it move. When he barks bounce it when he barks again bounce it when he barks on the third time toss it against the wall and scramble fast to get it as if he would try to get it before you.

Once the dog understand barking make the ball move you can reward him the ball on the third toss.

I do not make the dog in low drive out but instead show him another ball. Bounce it and he should drop it.

PROBLEM SOLVING i.e. - This did not work.

It can help the low drive dog to have a high prey drive dog tied in the same area. While in principle I am against agitation lines, I do not discount their utility in certain situations nor do I discount fully their intended purpose of building a positive response in a dog toward what he is supposed to be doing.

If you see the low-drive dog place more attention on the other dog then he is on you and the ball, increase the distance betreen the two dogs. Increase this distance in a way it allows the high-drive dog to see what is going on while dampening the influence he has on the low-drive dog by his presence. (AKA: Area of Influence)

In this example of training, we used, prey drive, dominance of a prey object and separation anxiety area of influence and associative learning pathways to reach our objective. I hope this explanation was clear and gives you some insight on how manipulating certain drives can be a good road to unlocking other drives in a dog.

Good luck.
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