I have been watching this DVD and find it full of useful training information. The philosophy behind the approach makes a lot of sense. I am looking for some clarification. It seems to me that you need to do the early foundation work with the tug as shown by Flinks in "The Foundation of Grip Training" and have the dog to the point of a firm, calm grip on the tug and carrying and holding the tug before you start any of the focus work shown in the first Flink's video. Otherwise, you would be inhibiting the pup's drive by teaching him to cap his drive and focus on the toy before you drop the toy to him. At what point should the dog be before you introduce the focus and concentration work. And at what point do you introduce the out?

With my own expierience, it didn't seem to "cap" my GSD's drive at all. If anything it loaded him up with the anticipation of getting his kong. The only thing I do differently from the Drive tape is that I want my dog to focus on my eyes before he gets the kong. I can hold the kong out at arms length and he doesn't get it till he looks at me, not the toy. Same way with heeling, bite work etc. I'm his focus point, not the kong, food, or the sleeve.

If the dog has enough drive for the prey item you are not going to inhibit his drive by doing some focus work, so for the most part I agree with Bob on this with the exception of I DON'T want my dog looking to me during bitework, I want him focused on the helper. Looking to the handler during bitework will cost you points in a trial. As far as the "Out" is concerned I don't think you need to worry about it until the dog is carrying the prey item with a calm firm grip. In the beginning it is usually easy enough to rip the prey item out of the dogs mouth and put him back in drive again. When the dog gets to the point where he doesn't want to give it up is when you can begin training the out. JMO

I can see starting to build drive and grip via Flink's methods with pups as young as 10 weeks old. However, it seems that you would want to wait until you have really built up the pup's prey drive until you start to introduce the pup to sitting out of prey drive and focusing on the toy. I'm thinking a good age to start the focus work is around eight months. By that age, the pup should really be driven for the toy and has some mental maturity which would help the pup in being able to focus.
What are some opinions on the average, optimum age to start the focus work?

I started my focus work as soon as my dog seemed to start paying attention. Sounds pretty simplifyed but that's what I made my decision on. That was very early with him. About 3-4 months. Naturally, you don't want to see how long you can streach it. It all depends on the dog. I think with any type of training, the mistake most often made is trying to move forward to fast. Let your dog tell you when it's ready to do more. Not because a book said it's time.
John, I agree about focusing on the helper. What I was referring to was exercises we do at training. Obedience bites. The dog wont be sent till he looks up at the handler. This is done from heeling with the helper in the field, behind the blind, etc. It seems to build their drive while staying under control. I'm not teling him not to bite, I'm just telling him performe for me and you get what you want. No compulsion to stay with the handler, but no bite till the dog gets himself under control and focus on the handler, if only for a split second. I'ts just simple motivational training. I've been training with motivation only at this point and, at 11 months, my dog has never had a correction on the field. He's learned that his performance gets him his reward, not my "control" keeping him from it. Hope all this made sense. I'm terrible at trying to explain things.

Chip: I think it depends on the individual dog as far as when to start focus work. Some dogs come out of the gate with so much drive it is probably possible to start a little earlier. Some dogs have the drive but it needs to be worked for a longer period of time to really bring it out. So I don't think there is any set formula. I think it's relativley easy to tell though, cause if you pull a ball up where the dog has to focus on it, he's either staring at it or jumping like a maniac to get it, OR he decides this is boring stuff and lies down to chew on a stick. So if the latter is the case then one must do much more work building his drive for the prey item.

Bob: I see what you are saying, and by no means am I telling you what to do with your dog. However, IMO I wouldn't worry about a lot of control with an 11 month old dog. Plenty of time for that as the dog begins to mature more. I have 2 dogs myself, the youngest just turned 1 year and is loaded with drive. For him, it's still about continuing to build that drive and having my helper work the dog mostly in prey. So we give him escape bites, backup bites, post him up and give him some misses, etc. I'm all for training a dog with motivation, I for one know my dog works much better this way then with compulsion. In addition, I understand the "theory" about the way you are choosing to reward your dog. With that said, I would just be concerned about how much attention you are demanding from your dog with your helper on the field. Sure there are times the dog needs to heel in protection, but he should not be looking to you. Instances I can think of are things such as the side & back transports, barking in the blind or in the middle of the field, etc. I would worry about creating some bad habits that will be hard to break later. You can see dogs in a trial that rely on looking to their handlers and they always lose points. I saw it this year at the Nationals. Anyway, JMO

Since this is a thread about the Flinks method, remember, we're talking about Bernhard's views here ( since we're discussing his and Ed's video )

Drive does not equal focus. Bernhard has said this more than a few times during seminars when asked. He has said that truely driven dogs have a harder time maintaining focus than a level headed dog.
Focus is an aspect of maturity. An immature dog, regardless of his age ( or drives ) will not have the ability to focus for more than a very breief period of time, and that period will be too short to be useful for the training the dog.

For some dogs, they can achieve focus at four to six months ( these tend to be either lower drive dogs or level headed dogs, but are often capable of higher sport scores in the long run ). High drive crazy-type dogs may not have a good focus level until age two years, or even later.

That's Bernhard's take on things...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Well if I remember correctly the video shows several examples of dogs that Ed remarks are not yet ready for focus work, as well as examples of dog's that are ready to progress in their training which is based on the drive of the dog. However, I think those examples are on the 4 hour DVD "Preparing Your Dog For the Helper".

In addition, Bernhard has mentioned that the videos are his training methods mixed with Ed's philosophy on dog training. So when people have questions relating to the videos there seems to be a difference in what "Bernhard's take" is on some aspects vs. Ed's. Since Ed is the narrator you automatically assume he is speaking for Bernhard.

I agree that focus is an aspect of maturity, however, I don't personally see how you can teach a dog that lacks drive to focus. So while drive may not equal focus, there has to be a catalyst there for focus work whether it's using the dog's favorite toy, food, or in rare instances a dog that will work soley for praise.

I thought the point of the video "Building Drive, Focus & Grip" was exactly that. You need to lay the foundation of building drive for the dog to be able to progress to the focus work. In the examples on the videos Ed shows a number of dogs that have low to mediocre drive for the prey item and makes it quite clear that they simply do not have the intensity to do the focus work. His comment is that the dog needs more of the drive building exercises to be able to progress in their training.

In this Flink's DVD, the early message is that Flink's approach is used to build the best grip in order to get maximum points in schutzhund protection. In previous discussions, I have read Ed's and others' comments about the downside of training the dog to see the sleeve as the reward and not the fight with the helper. Some of the outcome will depend on the genetics of the dog and some will depend on the training approach. If you have a serious dog and want him to see the decoy as a fighting partner and not just a motor behind the sleeve, how would you work with Flink's method to develop the grip while not teaching the dog the be sleeve happy? Is it simply a matter of developing the grip with pups and young dogs by having them hold and carry the tug/sleeve until you out them and then progressing to civil work and suit and hidden sleeve work? Or does Flink's emphasis on the dog holding the equipment tend to create problems later on in terms of being too equipment oriented? My understanding is that Flink's dog Itor is a working patrol dog. Anyone know how he trains to keep Itor focused on fighting the man?

First some things should be set straight. This is a Leerburg DVD produced and narrated by Ed Frawley featuring Bernhard Flinks. Bernhard will be the first to point out that the DVD's represent HIS training methods MIXED with Ed's philosophy on dog training. Since this thread is titled under the Leerburg Kennel & Video section of this forum, I think it is most appropriate to comment on the VIDEO itself and the information contained in the video rather than Bernhard's specific views on training as only HE can tell you what they are.

IMO, teaching a dog to have a solid grip has nothing to do with making a dog sleeve happy. The grip is one of the most important aspects to training a protection dog, particularly in Schutzhund where you are competing for points, and the dog is judged on the quality of the grip. The Flinks method in my view, does not promote sleeve happy dogs. In DOES promote dogs with better grips, focus & drive.

The last Flinks seminar I went to, I saw some dogs that came into the blind barking away happily in PREY, and Bernhard really lit into these dogs and let them have it! He was among one of the hardest helpers I've ever seen. Not abusive, but quickly and effectively made the dog understand that he was not there to be their play buddy. After a few minutes these same dogs came into the blind with much more awareness and serious aggression. Believe me when I tell you they were not sleeve happy.

The key to it all is, (and Ed points this out in the video) is that young dogs are worked in prey until they begin to mature somewhere between 18 to 36 months of age. Prey work is where you are going to develop solid, calm full grips. When the dog matures and you can begin working the dog in defense, the dog learns that the helper is someone that can hurt him and is to be taken seriously.

Finally, you can't really compare Bernhard's dog Itor to other dogs. Number one, Itor hates everyone, and all it takes is for someone to look crosseyed at him, and he will eat your lunch. Itor is a very serious and extremely hard dog.

I was surprised however, that Bernhard is letting a woman from his club work Itor for FH tracks only. She isn't allowed to do protection with him. When I asked him about this, he just winked and said she was a rather attractive lady. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />