Looking for some advice, and hope this hasn't been beaten to death before:

I've got a .6 acre lot, and would like a dog for some 'let's try rob a different house' effect.

However, I don't have any experience with a dog like this, but I would get the training DVD's and make a serious effort to obediance train it.

The other factor is a 'real' fence just isn't an option, and I would use the buried wire with the shock collar to keep the dog contained.

The last factor is the family (3 girls, and the wife) whom the dog would have to interact with.

Protection training would be a nice touch, even though any real situation gets attention from Mr .45.

I'm reasonably sure I can be firm enough with a rottie, but wonder how the family would deal with it. There is also the issue of it potentially over-running the fence chasing after a rabbit, pig, coyote, bobcat, or quail.

The other option is a high quality lab my friend bought for breeding, but didn't work out which is great for the family (as mellow a dog as I've ever seen), but seriously lacking in the early warning/intimidation dept. Unless I can train the lab to bark at strangers until I say stop (didn't even bark at me and my kids as we walked up to see it at the guys house).

Assume that there will be at least 1 or 2 family members that won't actively work with it. Is it crazy to even think about a rottie? Will it ultimately start showing dominate behaviour towards them?

Last thing I want is it to bite one of them, or any of their friends. I know I'm asking 2 contradictory things in good protection dog that's also good with kids/family.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Hi Tim,
I can't call myself an expert on the breed but I have successfully raised 7 rotties to ripe old age. If I understand your question, you are looking for the perfect dog that will be both protect your property and be a loving, safe companion for the family. That comes very seldom in a rottie. You can do it with strict ob work, lots of time and a lot of help from the dogs lineage. Just having the breed in your yard unfenced is going to p*ss off your neighbors. Telling them you have an invisible fence will do no good either. Put a yellow lab or golden in the same unfenced yard and the neighbors will be coming over for coffee. Unfortunately it just comes with the breed. If you want to discuss, PM me.
Jerry
PS Remember Tim, electric fences keep dogs in, not out........

Good morning Tim,
I tried the underground fence and it just does not work with a high prey/play drive dog and it does not give the neighbors a warm secure feeling. There are other fencing options besides the ugly chain link and in my case cheaper than the chain links.

Hi Tim,

I'm not expert either but I have had experience with Rotts and Labs. Labs are nice dogs but in my experience have no desire to defend or protect. The rotts I have worked with have been somewhat stubborn and difficult to train.

I have an open unfenced yard where my two GSDs can run around and I have been able to teach them that there is an invisible boundary that they are not allowed to cross. Recently a collie came into my yard and my dogs chased it but they stopped when they got to the sidewalk.

I am very much biased towards GSDs and my evidence is certainly anecdotal; but with this in mind have you considered looking at a GSD?

Tim,
I re-read your post and have some additional comments for you to ponder. I have had male rotties for 35 years. No protection training, just obedience work. My home is made up of daughters/wife like yours. I have been absolutley blessed with the dogs I have had. But, if I were to do it over again I may want that big drooly lab. As a rottie owner you take on additional responsibilty,most homeowners insurance refuse coverage to rottie homes (probably not without cause). You must be constantly vigilant of your daughter's playmates, your friends and family. I'm not saying the other breeds don't need attention but, the rottie seems to demand more attention. You mention protection training. DON'T DO IT (JMO). Put your efforts into OB training and leave the protection work to your Mr .45
Regards, Good Luck
Jerry <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

A few things to add.

Get a real fence before you get any breed of dog. If its not an option, you shouldn't own a dog. A fence is as much for keeping the dog in as it is for keeping other things out (including those burglers your trying to deterr). I know at least one incident where an invisible fence failed to keep a child out of a yard with the "guard dog" and the kid was lucky to just have his leg ripped open. If you don't want to be sued and have another person's injury/death on your conscience, I'd suggest finding a way to make that fence an option.

Any breed of dog will be a deterrent to a burgler. They will aim for the house with the most to gain and the least to loose. A barking dog is a liability, and at night in the dark a lab looks just as risky as a Rottweiler. They will pick the house that attracts the least ammount of attention.

Third, since breed is of no issue since you don't plan to do any protection training, you rather are looking at just making an impression by having it in the yard, I'd check with a rescue group or animal shelter. We have some truely fantastic large breed dogs that would deter a criminal and be a great asset to your family. I don't think a Rottweiler is right for you. If you pursue getting a Rottweiler, I would go with a female and get her spayed. Bitches are so much more protective than the boys, and just as imposing, and they don't have as many dominance issues. They mesh better with a family situation as well. You can try http://www.petfinder.org to find a nice, purebred/mixed dog if you are willing to go that route. I'm guessing a nice shepherd or lab mix will be exactly what you are looking for.

Again, I wouldn't go with any kind of dog if you don't get a real fence.

Hope this helps.

Quote from Dana: "I know at least one incident where an invisible fence failed to keep a child out of a yard with the "guard dog" and the kid was lucky to just have his leg ripped open. If you don't want to be sued and have another person's injury/death on your conscience, I'd suggest finding a way to make that fence an option."

Dana - I disagree with you on this. If you own a "guard dog" that is not discriminating about who and when it attacks someone then you have a dangerous dog and such dogs are certainly a huge liability. A dog should never attack a child that happens to wander into it's yard. A good protection dog should be trained that there are correct circumstances in which to be aggressive; otherwise all you have is a dangerous animal. I do agree with you that any unsupervised dog should not be left in an unfenced yard.

I work with my dogs on being aggressive only when aggression is warranted. I do this first because I enjoy it and second as a deterrent to criminals. If you don't believe that a dog can be trained to discern the difference between a child wandering into your yard and a criminal behaving criminally then perhaps you believe that no one should have PPDs? I trust my dogs to know the difference and have had opportunities to test it.

Quote from Dana: "Any breed of dog will be a deterrent to a burgler."

Yes I believe that is true. However 6 years ago I was walking my dog and was attacked by a man who hit me before I had time to re-act. My dog sat and watched as I was beaten almost unconscious -- it would have been nice if this dog would have a least barked and acted threatening but he had very little if any defense drive and no protection training at all. Fortunately for me someone saw what was happening and the police arrived.

Quote from Dana: "Third, since breed is of no issue since you don't plan to do any protection training, you rather are looking at just making an impression by having it in the yard"

I don't think Tim stated that he won't be doing any protection training. Quote from Tim: "Protection training would be a nice touch, even though any real situation gets attention from Mr .45." This is my philosophy as well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mike,
Maybe you can answer a question that I have pertaining to this thread.
If you have a really well trained PP dog with good nerves, under the control of someone without lots of experience, will the likelyhood of the dog being a danger increase?
I have absolutly no experience in the PP field.
Thanks
Jerry

Jerry,

My experience in protection training is limited. I have worked with the breeder I purchased my dogs from (she competes in PSA) and observed how she trains her dogs. I have never competed as there are no SCH, PSA, or other such clubs in my area. I have done lots of research on PP training (this website is a great resource) and am in the process of training my adult dog with a friend who acts as a helper.

There are many here who are truly experts and I will defer to them if I'm wrong; however, my personal view is: if PP training makes the dog indiscriminately dangerous (i.e. threatening or biting children that wander into my yard) then I will stop doing it. It seems to me that by the time you have a "well trained PP dog" then you should have a very good idea of what your dog will do in a given situation -- that is unless someone else has trained your dog for you. To me the goal is to have the dog be a danger to criminals and safe for everyone else. I believe that this is an achievable goal with the right dog and the right training. I would never ship my dog off for PP training, I want to know what my dog will do if a child wanders into my yard and I have tested this (under a controlled environment ).

Mike, from your quote:
"If you don't believe that a dog can be trained to discern the difference between a child wandering into your yard and a criminal behaving criminally then perhaps you believe that no one should have PPDs?"

You do realize that Police Patrol Dogs with *much* better training than almost all PPD's do bite children - you see those incidents in the news periodically. Sad when it happens, but that is always a risk for Patrol Dog deployment.
And if there was a way to train K9's to 100% prevent child bites from happening, don't you think that we'd be jumping on that training? Such training doesn't exist, unfortunately.

And what exactly do you mean by "a criminal behaving criminally"? If someone is in my yard, adult or child, they're trespassing - which is a crime.

And speaking of "criminal behavior", here's another thing to think about, which the amateurs also fail to see - suppose your assailant is a calm, cool individual that is only threatening you verbally, but is deadly serious? Someone in your backyard armed but motionless, telling you that he'll kill you and meaning every word he says. But your dog won't engage him because he's not moving ( no prey drive initiation ) and his voice and mannerism is cool and calm ( no defensive drive initiation ). This is why *all* Police Patrol Dogs and many PPD's have to be trained for civil aggression, i.e., to initiate an attack without being provoked.
Sadly, *very* few PPD's can or will go civil - if they could, they most likely would have been sold as K9 candidates.

Just my opinion here, but I do this for a living.