I copied my reply post from dominant dog issues to this category because it seemed more relevant here:

What is going on in the UK with show / working GSDs - DISCUSS - I would love hear all your valued opinions on my observations:

Firstly let me qualify what I say below by saying that of course there are some UK breeders who are truly excellent and have excellent dogs in all respects.

The UK Kennel club does not consider a dog a champion unless it wins at a conformation show. On the pedigrees it provides, it only prints the International or UK champions in red. All the German Siegers are in black like any other dog! Working titles are printed on the pedigree but it means nothing to the kennel club!

There is a split in the UK, although at present it only seems to be showing in the temperament rather than the appearance. However, UK bred show lines seem to be developing a bit of a roach and too steep croup. Temperaments of UK bred show dogs are pathetic! There are many fear biters and nervous wrecks. This has happened as a result of the "loveies" who think dogs shouldn't be trained to bite - they choose to breed the shy ones!! For heavens sake!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I breed imported German show with a sprinkling of working lines (which I'd like to increase) and don't touch the UK lines with a barge pole!!

People here are starting to hear about terms such as "high drive" and "working ability" and there are some judges who do look for this at shows (except they don't know what they are looking for ). These are truly the Lame Ass Judges VanCamp!!! I agree !!!

We also have German SV judges regularly judge the GSD championship shows. At these shows this is what UK show breeders do:

Leave their dog in the car in a cage parked close to other dogs in cars and next to a walkway where lots of people with other dogs will pass. Leave it there barking it's head off until it is called for it's class so that it will be so frustrated and manic by the time they let it out that it looks like a choking mad thing in the ring, jumping up, fighting the lead, slipping it's chain and running all over the place.

"This type of dog obviously is what the judge prefers" (it seems to the show breeders) and is their interpretation of high drive. The judge couldn't possibly check the rear and front movement as the dogs are being dragged back and forth with their front legs in the air!!

No GSD in this state of mind is suitable for any of the working tasks it is meant to perform. It is encouraging people to breed dogs that look like this in the ring and nothing else. Where is the aloofness, the calm focus and, yes, the drive ... but this isn't prey drive or defense or fight - just manic, get me out of here drive!

Just because a dog has been trained and hyped up to run round in a circle like a mad thing does not mean it has the correct temperament for it's original purposes and neither does it mean the dog is high drive.

How you can assess a dog's gait when it is dragging the handler round the ring and therefore almost has it's belly on the floor is a mystery to me! Gaiting should be smooth and efficient and free flowing not bobbing up and down straining to break into a gallop and yet these dogs are lauded as being "well up for it"

What a joke

Anyway, I pay lip service to the conformation ring and concentrate on schutzhund with my big male and a local helper(using mainly Ed's tapes and this board - thank you all SO MUCH) , Obedience and tracking with my older bitch and agility with my younger bitch. I've kept on a male from our last litter to also eventually do schutzhund with.

Do the UK showline lined dogs look like the American show dogs or are they more in line with the West German Showline dogs?

Are you saying the temperment is about the same as a german Show line dog- or is weaker?

Are they still called Alsations?Sorry for this questions but I just want to know-

GSDSAR

Temperament is weaker than German showline GSDs for sure. I think many would run away from a courage test if we had such a thing.

Conformation is similar to German showline several years ago:- too much roach and too steep croup. I think UK breeders have taken German show stock with the roach problems and bred them with UK old stock creating: necks that are too long and thin and heads that are too small also. Some even pose their dogs with the collar held snug up just below the ears and seem to be pulling the dogs head up unnaturally high with the lead. Looks very strange!!

Yes, some people still call them Alsatians which makes me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I don't like either show lines, they both suck.

VanCamp,

You should try to get to the point and not beat around the bush when sharing your feelings. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Vancamp

What particularly don't you like about the UK show lines? What do you think of the behaviour of the dogs and their owners before and during a show?

I ask because I can't have a discussion in the UK like the discussions that take place on this board - people get too offended!!

Ta <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Whats to like??

$$$?

Thanks VanCamp

I've followed the excellent debates and discussions you guys have had on this board almost since it started. I developed a great deal of respect for:
1. The way you manage to talk about all kinds of potentially flammable / controversial topics
2. The very high level of knowledge and experience you show.

In the UK I have not managed to find an equivalent group of people - they are either full-on show types or fluffy pet owners sharing photos etc.

I've learned a hell of a lot from you guys (thanks) and from Ed's site and videos. I'm now studying to become a canine behaviorist and finally feel confident enough to participate on here.

Part of what I learned from you right at the beginning was the harm that breeding show lines in USA was doing to the breed and looked around me and saw a similar scenario beginning in the UK.

Since I have very few people over here to debate this with - I turned to you guys, remembering the interesting debates on here about the show / working split in the USA. I thought you may be interested in the UK scene . . . I thought I could join in with your group. . .

Sincere thanks to GSDSAR for your interest <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sarah BMK,
You do everything you can to keep the GSD working line pure. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I have a 1/2 German Working line and 1/2 American Show line GSD. He is a Personel Protection trained male. All the faults go back to the Show line breeding. The faults are all genetic,(medical problems) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Small female looking head. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Great dog, but with hips bad and getting worse he doesn't enjoy what he does best anymore. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Please join in any discussion as you like. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Like alot here I do not care for any SHOW LINE
K-9's. Stay involved keep the LINE PURE.