this is something that I am intersted in learning about and have started a couple threads on this behavior already. I would like to know and discuss certain dogs or lines that have been known to throw this social aggression in there pups.

Break down social aggression into the specific traits that you are looking for.

That oughta narrow the scope of discussion this time around. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Hard dogs, serious edgy dogs. Dogs for the experienced. The cream of the crop. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I am talking about the dogs you do not see very often, the serious Protection candidates.

Vancamp: The dogs we were talking about on the previous thread.

Howard, I am assuming that you do not have any experience living with, handling, what "you" define as a "Socially Aggressive" dog. I don't believe you know what you're really talking about. The best of the best PPD dogs are "NOT" seriously edgy. In my mind you are describing a "JUNK YARD" dog! This has nothing to do with being a "Serious Protection" candidate unless you looking to guard a junk yard. They are not the "cream of the crop" and there are more of these types of dogs out here in the world than you could imagine! A dog does not have to be Socially agressive to be a hard dog either. I suggest you rethink you're opinions and do some real research and reading. Although even that is no match compared to actually owning and handling one of these dogs.

You remind me of the type of person who is looking for a junk yard dog to boost their own self image and ego! People like you are not responsible dog owners and because of that "you" "they" continue to feed the mass hysteria from the general public concerning so called vicious dogs. I think you need to stick with pugs or something similar.

Glenn

Glenn, If you're saying that the highest level PPD's are not edgy, can you give me a few examples?
That doesn't match my experiences with all the PPD's and PSD's that I've been involved with training all these years, but I've only trained maybe a couple of dozen PPD's ( probably under 50 total, since a really good one takes so long to train ) total, so I'm sure that if you've trained a lot more than I have, you may have seen something that I haven't encountered yet.
I'm always open to learn that my opinions are wrong....

I await your reply based on your experiences! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Will, while I do not have you're experience in the training department I do know something about dogs who display unwanted, and unwarranted aggression towards passive people. I owned a Leerburg male dog that would eat anyone's lunch including your's. It's hard for me to argue some things with you simply because I have not seen one dog that you have trained or talked about. Not saying that you don't know what your doing but believe me I have enough experience as an owner and handler of the so called "Socially Aggressive Dogs." My male gave even Dean Calderon something to ponder and a new found respect for my male! I live very close to Tom Brenneman who helped produce some of Leerburg's earlier video's. One of them "Training Personal Protection Dogs." I have never seen one of his dogs display the type of temperament that Howard is suggesting. I think that Ed will back me up concerning the type of behaviorial "extremes" being bred into a solid working PPD dog. Edgy in my book and I think I can talk for Tom Brenneman too, is NEVER GOOD! Howard Scott in my book is an idiot who is out to destroy the working dogs reputation with his bad advise and lack of knowledge. People like Howard should not breed let alone be breeding dogs! Something I have seen Ed say about someone and he is right some people just shouldn't breed and Howard is one of them. I have seen and heard about my share of shitty and poorly trained "so called" PPD's and what Howard is advocating is WRONG, STUPID, and IRRESPONSIBLE!

Glenn

Glenn,
I'm not defending Howard here, he's a big boy and can explain his own view points, whether or not I or other anybody else agree with them.

But are you saying that your definition of "edgy" is "dogs who display unwanted, and unwarranted aggression towards passive people." ?

My definition of edgy ( and I think most experienced PPD people use the term the same as I do ) is a dog that is suspicious, that has a low defense threshold.
That seems to be very different from your viewpoint.
You may feel free to believe that " Edgy in my book .... is NEVER GOOD"
But I think that statement is displaying your lack of experience and education on the matter. Owning one dog out of working lines does not make one very experienced in the training of PPD's - but you're entitled to your own views, of course.

A real world PPD that isn't suspicious to some degrees doesn't exist. End of story.

I think edgy is good. . .and necessary.

It seems that maybe people are over estimating just how much "edgy" is good.


Without accessible defensive thresholds, without an offensive mindset, without a level of sharpness (quickness to react to stimuli with an aggressive response) and without a level of fight drive you don't have a good work dog IMO.


For me it comes down to this, I like a dog who will offer the defensive and offensive behaviors I want in a bite dog with minimal threatening stimulation. . .and "protection" training.

Thats what I call edgy.

Although I`m no expert in PPD`s I have to say I doubt Howard Scott is either. I`d like to see his resume` but this is the net and we can all be "experts". I totally agree with Glenn Wills. I`ve been following the various threads and am amazed by the rudeness. Looking at the links that Jenn posted (Ed`s writings) they seem to contradict the "experts." I wouldn`t say edgy is never good but we may have different definitions. By the way how much of a testosterone deficit does one have to have to call another`s post retarded?


"Sorry Patrica, but this seems like a long shot to me. I mean, to expect a dog to be "self-disciplined" and to think like you mentioned is retarded." Howard Scott