Well. Here's the low down short and sweet. No need for all the details.

A guy who had a malinois that many told stories of being trained to a very high calibur. This guys methoods is to teach defense first so he trusts no one and then once aggresive. Hold his mouth and let certain people touch the dog letting it know its ok.

Well, he started to get a little rough with my pup explaining he's to friendly and that at 4months his dog would lunge at you if you.

My dog started whining and trying to run away. He explains that if I keep this up he won't be so friendly to strangers. Then with discipline you can make him mind his manners.

Well, I do like I normally do and bring my dog out in the public. That particular day (day before yesterday) I saw something I DIDN'T like at all.

He's never seen other dogs before. My reasons being that I haven't had all of his shots until a few weeks ago and I wanted them to kick in. No parvo or other pathogens are going to get the best of my dog. Anyhow, he's seen my neighbors little mutt dog and he sort of bounced around and barked. Well, he saw the mastiff and was spooked. The mastiff was so lethargic I was amazed the thing would actually just stand there for the time he did.

Eventually he would go up and smell the mastiff then look around at all the poeple.

The guy with the mastiff was hugging on my dog and petting him and allowing the dog to lick his face and have his paws in his lap and such. Then he kept petting the dog and he went on his back and curled his tail between his legs. and the guy kept petting him. I sort of pulled on the lead to get the dog to get up. Another person came to pet it but I told them not to touch the dog if its on its back. They agreed and the other guy apologized.

OK, the questions.....

1. Why the hell did my dog cower like this? Is it b/c of the encounter with the guy that made him yelp and rough handle him?

2. What extent and time limit should I allow my dog to be touched? I find it VERY disturbing to have people hugging and alowing my dog to lick their face, and just all over other and total strangers (kids being the exception, I couldn't care less if a kid hugged on him)...


The conclusion.

I think from this day forward if you want to touch my dog, I give him a word, "okay", then you pet him on his back (on top of the head of dominance from a stranger I heard several times) for a few pats and that's it. No baby talk to my dog, no loving onmy dog, none of this... Am I a little irate and far fetched now or does this seem realistic? This is going to be a personal protection dog that should mind strangers brought into the house or in public but will NOT seek them out for love and licks.

Maybe, don't let them pet the dog besides kids. As long as he's in the public looking at people and not going nutty, he is being socialized in how normal behavior of humans are. Therefore, will be fine if they don't love on him. The baby sweet talking is a no no to me. Sweet talk a dog into allowing it to rob your house or steal your vehicle, no not happening.

Sorry for the rant. I am just a bit frustrated. I want the best for my dog. I spend hours walking him in buildings, in public and to have him exploited doesn't sit well with me. That is, if the publics actions are actually ruining my dog.

And what about this guy who roughly handled the dog telling me that he needs to learn to not trust everyone. Otherwise as an adult this dog will love every stranger, thief, or assailant...

How old is your dog? What are you training for-personal protection, schutzhund?

I"m a novice, but did I read correctly that you're training defense first???? in a 4 month old puppy??? That's backwards from everything I've ever read or witnessed in training dogs. Some others with more experience will be able to tell you more. I think you're more likely to end up with a dangerous high strung dog, than a stable loyal personal protection dog.

While I am also a novice, training defese first goes against what I have learned so far also. If some stranger came up to me and held my mouth shut as you say this trainer did and I had not had my confidence built up through other training, I would probably try to run away also. Now, that the pup had this bad experience, when the pup met another stranger, it did not want the same thing to happen so it immediately gave up and rolled on its back. Ed has an article about this-Training defense first is wrong

I hope his article helps answer some questions.

Your trainer is an IDIOT. I would find someone else to train with. 4 month old puppies do NOT get worked in defense. You begin training with PREY first until the dog begins to mature which is somewhere around 18 to 36 months. JMO

Don't walk....run away from that guy.

Aaron,
I am no expert on dog training. I can give you my persepctive as a dog lover who touches dogs in public.

If I am interested in petting a dog that I see out and about with its owner. I ALWAYS ASK THE OWNER OF THE DOG FIRST. I have always done this.

My reasons:
Make sure it is ok with the owner of the dog.

Make sure I DO NOT GET BITTEN.

I don't do this a lot. I find I do it a little more now to expose my child to dogs. (We don't know anyone with dogs) I also make sure I ask from a distance and keep close to the dog and my child. I figure if someone has to get bitten - it should be me.

Carolyn

Hello, there Aaron.......this is the first time on this web site, so please bear with me.....In dog training there is always more than one way to get the job done, my only comment on what you wrote above is, as a trainer I would not do what he is doing......I am not saying that he is wrong, just that I wouldn't do it......I don't know how much experience you have in raising dogs so I must warn you that typically a malinois is , "A lot of dog." especially for a young handler.......I am currently a handler/trainer for a Police department in Canada. Our department runs our own Malinois breeding and puppy rearing program and I oversee both. I have raised numerous pups which in turn were turned over to handlers and then they were further trained to a Level 3 standard. (We follow the same standards as the RCMP.) So I have some experience in the breed. My advice to you is to get that dog out and socialize him.

My first malinois was 2 years old when I got him and in short he was not a friendly dog and I did not trust him around people. He was not socialized properly and his final disposition reflected this. If it wasn't for his tracking abilities, (Over 300 tracking arrests alone) I would not have kept him.

If you are able to get that dog out in areas where there is lots of people, malls, airport, universities etc....get him used to his surroundings. I have no problem with people coming up and petting our pups. I would rather them being social than a liability on a leash. Get him used to being handled, by this I mean beaing able to pick him up carry him around etc......play with his paws, ears etc, get him used to being touched.

When feeding him, take food out of the bowl and feed him by hand, pull the bowl away then give it back. You don't want a dog that his food possessive, as you will undoubtedly have kids around when he is eating and they always go over to the dogs food bowl......So to avoid a possible bad bite, get him used to having his food removed etc....

When training your mal, remember, mals can be quirky.......There will be times when you have to put your ego in your pocket. With a mal, in training if you can resort to coersion over compulsion when training, it will pay dividends down the road. By this I mean if you can trick him into doing what you want instead of forcing him to do what you want, will make life much simpler for you and a better product in the end. They are tough dogs, but handler sensitive. So if you are going to give him a correction make sure that it is fair. If you start overcorrecting him and not being fair in your corrections, it is a good chance that he will turn on you and you will be bit.......It is not a dominance issue only a frustration/drive issue with the breed. So remember the ego thing and don't get mad at him during training.......Good luck.....

David BESSASON Trainer/Handler
Winnipeg Police Service

Why would you ever care that your dog is being petted in public?????? That is silly macho crap. Dogs need experiences that are positive with people when they are growing up. I have owned dogs that did not like people period. What a stupid life that dog had. I could not get them to do much more than accept that they were there. Had to put them in a run if my parents came over, or my siblings it really really sucked

I agree with everyone wanting to have a happy confident pup in public by letting it get properly socialized. I never knew a puppy that was 'ruined' by a bit of baby talk, but I know alot of dogs that can't be trusted out in public because they were isolated from strangers their first year.

Good info on the following sites:

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/DevelopmentalStages.html

http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/lib-puppy.htm#soc