I've recently come across a very interesting breed; a Boerboel. I spent awhile on the phone with a breeder and am interested in looking into this dog more thoroughly. I'm looking for input from more knowledgeable people, particularly those with experience with this breed.

I have no protection training experience. I've obedience trained my last dog with Leerburg videos only. My last dog was an excellent female Bullmastiff which I had to put down due to cancer when she was 5. We rescued a female GSD last fall which has worked out very well. The dog is well socialized with other animals and people. Our goal for the last few years has been to have two dogs.

My wife and I are looking for a Bullmastiff, but more agile and athletic. The Boerboel appears to fit that description. From what I've learned, it's somewhat leaner than an bullmastiff and has considerably more stamina; it'll go on a 15 mile hike with me and my kids. Life span is also better: 12-15 years.

What do people think?

I have not made up my mind whether or not to protection train this dog - I'm still not sure I can make that commitment of time - although an excellent trainer is nearby. Seems to be like marriage; it's all or nothing.

If anyone's interested in the breeder I spoke with, send me a PM and I'll get back to you.

Shaun

About a year ago, Reiner Geel (member #2751) of South Africa posted a quite extensive discussion on the Boerboel in this thread ...

http://www.leerburg.server294.com/ubb//ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=120;t=000026

His contribution is towards the end of the thread.

Edited 8/6/04 to repair URL after move to new Leerburg server -- CS

Shaun,
Be warned - these are dogs for very experienced people only. Their protective instincts are very strong, and these tend to be aggressive to a fault. Unless you are getting death threats on a frequent basis, I wouldn't even consider one of these dogs. ( and Shaun, please look through the forums a bit - you will see that I handle very tough dogs on a daily basis, it's not like me to speak ill of aggressive dogs - but this breed is in my experience an exception to this rule )

Socializing them doesn't always seem to help. I saw several of them in RSA as estate guards, and they were tough customers. The few that I've seen here in the U.S.A. have usually been involved in handler conflicts that was leading to their eventual euthanasia.

These are great dogs for crack dealers and people on the run from the Mob. For most other people, it's like owning a Fila....... it's sounds a lot cooler than it turns out to be in real life.

Sorry to be so negative, but it's the truth as I see it ( and most people in the U.S. have never even seen a Boerboel - I did in home Ob on one not two months ago )

Incidentaly, I thought that the estate guards in RSA *were* Fila mixes when I saw them back in those days ( I did wonder why they were so dry mouthed tho...and why they docked the tails. Not my smartest moment.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> )

Shaun - by the way, do you have small children?

From what Reiner said, maybe we didn't import the right dogs in this country - but good with children they are definately *not*.

Charlie, I read Reiner Geel's post; very interesting, thank you.

Will. This type of information is why I posted to this list. Your comments contrast remarkably with what the breeder told me today.

I do have young children - 12, 10, 6 and 4.

What would you recommend?

IF you have your heart set on a bull or Mastino breed, and you are not sure about the protection training aspect, I would look for a dog that would be impressive looking, but a real sweatheart around the house.

If it were me, and those were my criteria, I'd go with a Cane Corso.

For the most part they have very nice temperaments and lack most of the sharper traits of the Boerboel, the Presa Canario, the Neo, or other various bandog looking types.

Better health than the Bullmastiff or English Mastiffs.

They are agile and are certainly athletic.


I have a friend who has a thing for the Spanish and Italian breeds. He has a Presa Canario, a Presa Malorquin, a Pastor Malorquin, and his wife has a Cane Corso.

They are all nice dogs, but there isn't much doubt as to which one is the gentle giant. Most of that dog's littermates and relatives are the same way.

They look VERY intimidating, especially if the tail and ears are done well.

Finding a breeder that is worth something would be the most difficult job for these rare breeds.


If I were you I'd look to something a bit more mainstream and accessible. A nice well selected GSD or Rotty is a great choice.

Black Russian Terrier would be another good choice. They are large, defensive with strangers and great with a family. Espicially children. Good ones can still be found for protection work. They do come in a wide variety of temperaments. They run from very docil in the showlines to extreamly aggressive in some of the working lines. Most fall somewhere in the middle. They do take an experienced trainer that is willing to let go of their pre-conceptions about traing as they train much differently than other protection breed.

They meet one of my other requirements besides the size in that they are all black, and with the trim you can't see their eyes so if you are facing one all you see is a HUGE head with all white teeth. They do require grooming every 4-8 weeks, with at least weekly (preferably daily) brushing in between. The intimidation level is something else. They are also much more agile than any dog that size should be. Their working stamina is short lived, especialy in heat, but they will stay with you as long as you go when on a walk.

A very reputable breeder is a must since they do have hip and elbow problems.

Thank you to everyone for posting.

The message I'm getting from everyone who's taken the time to post is consistent and supported by considerable experience. I'm not taking it lightly.

I've seen an entirely different message from the breeder I spoke with and a number of 'marketing' web sites I've read.

Our wonderful, positive experience with our Bullmastiff seems to have produced blinders on me regarding the risks inherent in bringing another working breed into our home. I'm not blind to these risks, but I'm not entirely sensitive to them either.

My wife and I have agreed that we simply don't have enough information or experience to make this decision at this time. While we're very comfortable in getting informed opinions and recommendations, we don't want to rely solely on them.

So what we've decided to do is rather than continue to obedience train our rescue GSD at home, I'm going to call Krommerhaus Kennels, which is a reasonable distance from our home, to train her there and look into whether she's capable of protection work.

Once we're comfortable with this training, and see other breeds, we'll look into getting our second dog.

Thanks again to all for the input, this forum has allowed us to avoid making a dangerous decision.

Shaun O'Leary

I've talked to owners of Boerbels from South Africa and have been told that these dogs do not make good sport dogs.

Shaun,

I'm not sure from the posts above whether you are still interested in a protection-trainable dog, or just want a big dog with an impressive look, a good disposition around the house, a long life-span, and enough stamina to go hiking with you.

If it is the latter, in addition to the Cane Corso suggested by Robert Van Camp, you may want to look into the Tibetan mastiff (or as it should probably be called, the Tibetan mountain dog). As a rare, primitive breed relatively new to the US and western-style "breeding" as opposed to the survival of the fittest on the high steppes of Tibet, they tend to have somewhat fewer genetic health issues, and they have a 12-15 year life span. My family has two (in addition to a Jack Russell terrier). TM's tend to be very difficult to deal with as puppies, lots of chewing on anything they can get hold of, but ours are now maturing nicely at almost 16 months -- ours are very distant cousins, not littermates, although they are only a day apart in age.

Adult males are 26-28 inches, 120+ pounds (some breeders really like the larger lines, which can go up to 150-180 in some cases); females are proportionately smaller, around 100 pounds. There are a lot of websites discussing the breed if you want further information.

You should be aware that they don't respond to the recall well as a general rule (hence the general advice "never off leash") and tend to have their own opinions, but that's part of the charm of the TM.

So far my experience validates the advice I was given that it is not a breed that would do well in protection training. Prey drive seems very low, but my male, at least, is very territorial and my family sleeps soundly knowing that NO ONE will ever walk into our house unannounced, and whoever does so will leave quickly -- if they can. Outside, the TM has been described as a dog that will simply place himself between you and any perceived threat. I haven't seen a lot of that behavior yet, but maybe the sight of me walking the two of them discourages threatening behavior. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> At 16 months, mine are still not full-grown. It should be interesting when they are.

Although some say that they are hard to train in obedience, that hasn't really been my experience with basic obedience. Walking my two together, I often put them in sit- or down-stays when we meet other dogs and watch the amazed looks of the other dog owners as my dogs just calmly sit or lie there while the other dogs are yapping, growling, lunging, pulling, etc. It took a while (and a prong collar from this site <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> ) to get to that, but it seems to be working for now.

Enough blathering, though. I really enjoy my TM's. If you work with a good breeder to get the right puppy, are willing to take on the hassle of the amazingly destructive puppy and juvenile stages, work the heck out of them in obedience, and socialize with dogs and people like crazy (I guess that really applies to most any dog), you may enjoy a TM, too.

They are also great with kids -- we sit outside our local coffeeshop with the dogs, and every kid that comes along wants to pet them, and the dogs tolerate it very well.

Most breeders produce one or only a few litters a year, and I expect that most puppies are spoken for by now as the TM is in season only once a year in late fall or early winter.

Here is a link to some pictures of Elvis (StormnAngels Canadian Platinum), taken at about 8 months. My girl, Misty (Himalaya's Valkyrie Mist) is a black and tan, simlar in coloration to Shyama.

Hope this helps.