i've been lurking in the background of a few gsd and schutzhund groups for months now. absorbing as much info as possible. my wife would just walk past me and the computer smile and shake her head. my wife and 2 of the kids are gone for a month on vacation now and i find myself still hitting the same old sites and looking for new ones (you'd think with my wife gone i'd be hitting the other 70% of the internet). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I have gained tremendous respect for many of you out there. when i came to this board i was surprised to find two of my favorites from another board, mr van camp and deanna. i would capitalize but my daughter spilled juice on the keys and the shift and cap lock keys are stuck together. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> i really enjoyed the working vs show debate. i've purchased three books on schutzhund, 2 books on obedience,as well as 3 tapes from ed.i plan on purchasing a pup in the near future but not until i pass my elevator mechanics test for the state of oregon. the test is in september and there's lots of studying in my future. so it wouldn't be fair for the pup right now. I want to do this right the first time. my question is when breeders pick the right pup for the right person how is the selection made? I want a pup with some promise. will the breeder, knowing that i have limited experience, pick a pup with less drive? does the pups with the best potential go to the proven trainers? i know that i'll probably need a fairly hard dog. so many questions so little time. if there is anyone on the board from portland or and wants to teach this old dog new tricks please pm me. i did notice a previous post from robert vc about puppy training in portland is that main or oregon. if its oregon i'd be honored to buy you that microbrew your always talking about. i also make a mean homebrew. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

hi jim, and welcome.
at least your wife is still smiling as she shakes her head. it would be good if the entire family also loves dogs, even if they don't care to get into the training end of it. you are indeed lucky to be near VC. i don't think he would steer you wrong, so don't be afraid to ask his advice.
JMHO, but i don't think you can fit the "right" dog into a time frame. invariably they will come along at times when you have other commitments or times when finances are lean. its true that you do have to spend a great deal of time with the puppy that first year in bonding and socialization, but its not stressful or demanding time....more relaxed and enjoyable time. (lots of play, confidence building and drive building)
and yes, you will make mistakes. everyone does. its good to be able to rely on the advice of a trustworthy breeder, but unless they are really familiar with what comes from their dogs, they may also be limited in how they can direct you. its also good to be able to rely on experienced people to help get you started with your new pup, give you tips on training and play, but remember it is ultimately you who knows your dog and has to make the decisions on what type of work is right for you and your dog, when its time to go forward and when to step backward. just relax. have a good time. know that you will make mistakes, but learn from them. then if you decide later that you want to get into high competitions with your dog.....then you can start worrying about all those little details, but for now, don't let it spoil the fun of having a new pup or the wonder and excitement of exploring new things. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Starting early is great. How the breeder picks puppies varies a lot. Some sell the most promising pup to whoever will pay the most, others do it by who showed interest first, and some do it by the training experience that the people have. Pups change a lot, so just try to find an overall great litter and get what you can <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> . Waiting is great, but once you are ready to get a pup you might have to wait even longer to find the right pup. It's well worth it.

You can always foster for a GSD rescue in your area and obedience train the dogs if you feel that you need more experience. I plan on doing this as soon as I can (which might be several years down the road).

Jim, as a novice to sch (my first attempt at such training), I can't be of as much help as others. However, based on my limited experience I will ditto Lauren's advice to "try to find an overall great litter".

The breeder recommended a pup out of her litter to me based on my requests: sch prospect, biddable, housedog, female. I got the smallest one in the litter, and because she knew I was inexperienced in schutzhund and...ahem...a senior citizen, I'm sure I didn't get the driviest one. But choices are more similar if a breeder produces uniform litters: ie, half this litter is titled already, some to a Sch. Even the runt (who, btw, is now 24" and 70 lbs) is doing fine in sch!

I asked the training director at our club how come it took just a few sessions to get my dog to run the blinds and do a B&H, while some dogs in the club had been at it for months with lesser results. His answer: it's the breeding; her mother-line has generations of Sch3's. What he was trying to say nicely was that success is not so much the result of my training (in fact, probably in spite of it... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ), it's the dog's genetics at work.

thanks for such a quick reply lauren and patricia. the kids are looking forward to the future arrival. my youngest sees a dog and asks "is that a gsd?".
my family does look over the shoulder and checks out the photos i'm looking at in the different web sites and points out the ones they like. yesterday i spent alot of time looking at two of the videos that i received from ed. by the way ed thanks for such a quick delivery. a few days and they were in my hand. i wasn't expecting them for another week. anyway it was funny i thought i recognized a dog on one of the videos and sure enough i was right it was arrow v zuckerberg. but the video did lead me to some of the worries that i have. i know i dont want a dog that would rather lick himself than go after the prey items. that must be hard for the owners of those dogs. sure they have a good pet but you know they were expecting alot more. i was amazed at the subtle differences of bernhards handling and the big diferences he brought out in the dogs. wow. i am also curious about clubs in the area. i know of 4, and one of the local clubs web sites (not a schutzhund group) had photos of their training. 3 of the photos showed a dog at heel. the dogs head was down in all three photos. so i am concerned with their training methods. i guess i need to make a personnal appearence. photos could be misleading. but 3 during the same exercise. im getting off the point of this post. and if i keep typing about all my concerns ed is going to need another 3500 pages.

Welcome Jim,

Re: that other board... lol. It amazes me how long someone can continue to breathe with their heads up their hineys. lol...

Glad to hear you found us here. This board is slanted the OTHER way.

The big thing with puppies is to remember they ARE a crapshoot. You might get one with great drive and then end up with a health problem. You might get one healthy as a horse that isn't what you wanted or needed. Or you might get the pup of your dreams. That is where temperment testing and an HONEST breeder comes into play. Be wary of anyone clamining every dog they ever bred is headed for top sport. If that is the case they should be able to back that claim up with scores. Look into the past dogs a little more than what photos the breeder has up- ask for references of people who have had their dog a while. Be careful with this though, as sometimes a good dog gets screwed up from a bad handler and somehow the breeder is to blame. This is where you will have to have good listening skills and trust your gut.

A well bred litter should be consistant in looks and drives. This does not mean that there will not be differences in the indivdual pups that will assist the breeder in picking the correct home, but there shouldn't be a huge difference in temperments either. Ed has some great articles on picking a working puppy and that is also covered in his Bite Training Puppies tape.

Be honest with your breeder about what you want and the resources available to you. Check out the clubs in your area. See which one you think has the best support structure. Videos are great, but you will have to fall back on a club for some problems and having people you are comfortable working with is a must. Realization of what it takes to get to top sport with a dog is not easy to understand from watching a video. There is a HUGE time investment that a lot of people who are new to the sport seem to miss the idea of. If you train once or twice a week- only on the designated training days- it will show. It doesn't mean a dog can't get trained that way, but it will take longer than a dog who is worked nearly every day in some fashion.

And about puppies... I have yet to see any time of year when there were not puppies available from several breeders. If you know you want a working line dog- look to see if there is any specific type you really like- and make sure it is more than just the look of the dog. Different lines work and mature differently. My Belgian dog is very different from my Czech female. There are things that I like about both and things that I don't like about both. No dog is perfect and the handler does have a great deal of influence in the end result of the dog.

well, I am rambling.. again welcome aboard!

thanks for your reply ann. it is very helpful as is all the others. alot of my time is spent researching the different pedgrees of the different dogs that i've come across on the net. i find my self going back and forth from breeder sites to pedegree searches then to this board to see if there is opinions on the different bloodlines. im probably making this out to be more than it has to be but i needed a hobby <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> thank god for the internet. or should i say thank gore. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> i've benn interested in schutzhund since the early 80's but gave up on it for a long while when i couldn't find anything in the area except a training facility in washington. they refused to train my dog. i had a apbt at the time. he told me they wouldn't even think of training "those dogs". didn't even want to look at the dog. I was raised around gsd's during my childhood in the early 70's (one of them named penny saved me from in the very least a severe beating but thats another story). after 2 bouts of hd (american lines) one was my moms show shepard a sable and the other was my best freind amber a black gsd <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> i got away from the breed, but i always held the breed in the highest regard. I just didn't like what has happened to them in the states. Then i discovered the european lines thanks again to the internet (i didn't realize how prevalent they were in the u.s.) and hear i am.

hi deanna thanks for the greeting and your reply. you are always a wealth of information. that battle at the other site was an ugly one. i'm still trying to get the blood off my shirt...and i was an innocent bystander. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> i do like the feeling of this board but i do find myself wandering over to the other one now and again. i don't want to miss the gloves coming off again <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> i am in the process of trying to find a club in the area. i went to the field that one of the clubs is suppose to practice at but when i got there there were no cars in the parking lot. i guess i should of called first but its not far from the house so i figured why not. another one i emailed but no reply...again should have called. i beleive shes on both this board and the other. i've been to your website a few times. great site. in fact been there before i found any of the boards. again thanks for your help.

I understand the fascination- it is akin to a car wreck on the side of the road- you just have to look, even though you know it isn't going to be good and that slowing down is what is holding up traffic...

I still visit as well- someone has to stick up for the ugly dogs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Soak the shirt in cold water.. hot water will just set the stain. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Give the clubs a call. Some clubs can be "cool" acting to newcomers, as so many come and then never return. Don't be put off by a cool reception. Show some of YOUR drive to do the sport- that is as important as the dog.

again deanna thanks for the advice. with my wife being gone for the month that laundry advice will come in handy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> just came back from your web site congatulations on the new additions.

"ugly dogs" who in their right mind could call them ugly? just look at that nyna she's beautiful.