Well, that last thread was a kick in the pants. How about we start talking about the real topic over hear.

I have used agitation muzzles in protection training. I thought it was great. I felt that it was safer than working with a hidden sleeve. With a good dog the action is pretty intense.

Has anyone seen Ed's tape Muzzle Fighting for PSDs? I'm thinking about picking it up. Have not seen it.

Classic muzzlework is done in aggression I´ve heard, but I also heard that you could train muzzlework in preydrive. In a protectionsport where muzzles are used, you could get a hardhitting dog in the muzzle using his preydrive instead of agression. I guess this is done in sportwork where you don´t need real aggression in the dog, the training in muzzle for sport should be fun for the dog, also they don´t train for servicework so they don´t need real aggression, therefore they only use preydrive in the muzzle.

I've seen the preview from another tape of his I purchased. It looks very intense, and very good from what I've seen.

I think you'll enjoy it.

I have the tape.....BUY IT!!!!. One of the best ones I have seen.

One of the things that has concerned me about using a muzzel in agitation is that the dog will become frustrated that it can't get a proper bite, and become "hectic" on the bite when the muzzel come off. Is this a problem and how do you avoid it in training?

The muzzle work affecting the grip or the other bite stuff was not a concern with me because we used the muzzle so rarely. Maybe one in ten+ agitation sessions over a few years. All suit work and civil work in between. I never had a problem.

I could see how there could be negative effects if the muzzle was overused. One, like you said Rich, the other bite work might suffer. And two, you would be negating the usefulness of the civil aspects of the work because the dog could become cued to the muzzle as just another part of the sport of playing. I only used the muzzle because I wanted to work with a man that had no equipment on to see if the dog would engage. (As close to a 'real life' bite as possible)

The hidden sleeve was not an option with my dog. My training partners all agreed that it would be too risky. Uher was apt to take low bites, even in regular sleeve work, and none of us had/has the experience in using the hidden sleeve in anything more that bites over a wall or at a door where you can protect your body.

Richard Cannon wrote: One of the things that has concerned me about using a muzzel in agitation is that the dog will become frustrated that it can't get a proper bite, and become "hectic" on the bite when the muzzel come off. Is this a problem and how do you avoid it in training?

LC: I’ve never had this problem and the muzzle is one of my favorite tools for doing realistic training. I’ll go so far as to say that a muzzle is the ONLY way that you can make training completely realistic, up to the point of the actual bite that is.

LC: Of course the dog has to think that the muzzle does not mean anything special, including manwork. But this is just a matter of de–sensitizing.

LC: I’m not a fan of the hidden sleeve and neither is Josh Lewis. To quote him speaking before a group of police officers, “Hidden sleeves suck!” I agree. The use of a hidden sleeve by many decoys results in weak bites probably because it hurts and so the decoy tends not to fight as hard as when he’s better protected. It’s only realistic the very first time that a dog sees one because after that he realizes that the fat, unusual looking arm, is just like a hard sleeve. I know that some agencies use it for certification but I think that’s a mistake. In every case the decoy “presents” the sleeve to the dog, destroying any realism that may have existed. The decoy is constantly dealing with protecting himself so any realism goes out the door.

LC: In any case one good way to prevent hectic biting from becoming a problem is to use this technique. Right after a muzzle hit and fight, pull the dog back from the decoy, who continues agitating but retreats a short distance and retrieves a big sleeve from a place where he dog can’t see it. It’s best if he stands so that he's partially concealed at this point, so the dog can’t see the sleeve. Don’t leash the dog when you pull him back from the muzzle hit and don’t give him any commands. This lets him stay focussed on the decoy. As the decoy retreats and gets the sleeve, remove the muzzle. As soon as you get it off, send the dog for a bite. the frustration that them muzzle just brought will be releived on that bite.

VanCamp wrote: I could see how there could be negative effects if the muzzle was overused. One, like you said Rich, the other bite work might suffer. And two, you would be negating the usefulness of the civil aspects of the work because the dog could become cued to the muzzle as just another part of the sport of playing. I only used the muzzle because I wanted to work with a man that had no equipment on to see if the dog would engage. (As close to a 'real life' bite as possible).

LC: If you completely de–sensitize the dog to the muzzle he won’t make any association to bite work when it’s on. Put it on for 10 minutes and nothing happens. Take it off for an hour. Put it on for 10 minutes and Fido gets to go pee. Take it off for an hour. Put if on for 30 minutes and do some OB. Take it off for 30 minutes. Put it on for 10 minutes and let some people pet him. Take it off for 15 minutes. Put if on for an hour and play retrieve (he won’t be able to pick up the toy so you might want to have it on a rope).

LC: The point is for him NOT to associate it with man work. Once he’s lost this association you can do VERY realistic training. Do a car stop in an alley where the suspect attacks the handler or flees. You can set these up on non–training days, which further adds to the realism. Get into a fight with one decoy who's standing in a crowd of onlookers. Have the deocy knock you to the ground and stand over you kicking you while you call the dog through a crowd from the car.

LC: These are just a few examples of training scenarios that are realistic but difficult to set up without a muzzle.

VanCamp wrote: The hidden sleeve was not an option with my dog. My training partners all agreed that it would be too risky. Uher was apt to take low bites, even in regular sleeve work, and none of us had/has the experience in using the hidden sleeve in anything more that bites over a wall or at a door where you can protect your body.

LC: There’s nothing wrong with “low bites” in a PPD or a police service dog. Both will stop a suspect until the handler can get to the scene and assist his dog. Higher bites, especially where a dog launches at the decoy, are “crowd pleasers” but unless a dog slows down and goes straight up, are easy to dodge. A real crook with a blunt object or a knife can easily hurt your dog. I’d suggest that you lose the hidden sleeve and get a suit. Try the Rocasport or the Freddy. Both can be custom made with any degree of protection that you like and both let you move realistically, drive a car or ride a bicycle.

Thanks Lou,

I have been considering some muzzle work with this dog when she gets older, but the only work I have seen done with muzzle was teaching a take down technique that I didn't particularly care for (at least not with the type of dog I like). It just wasn't necessary because there were better bites available and it would encourage a neck bite and I have a problem with that. The tape on muzzle fighting is next on my list so I guess I will look at that and go from there.

Lou,

Would it be worth starting the muzzle desentization now, as a puppy, rather than waiting until after the bite training has been done?

Richard Cannon wrote: it would encourage a neck bite and I have a problem with that.

LC: You should have a problem with a neck bite. It can easily cause death and take the dog out of the “not” deadly force category.

Richard Cannon wrote: Would it be worth starting the muzzle desentization now, as a puppy, rather than waiting until after the bite training has been done?

LC: Anything that you do with a puppy makes what you want to do later, easier. Right now, when he’s muzzled you can play with him with a toy. After 20-30 seconds or so, remove the muzzle and play with him without it. Keep the play times short so he stays interested.

Just curious what kind of muzzle is used?