I'm a threatening helper, and I've experimented with extreme agitation dozen's of times on different fields. If I menace a dog and do not use much prey motion, you'd be amazed at the number of dogs that will retreat, often all the way to their owner's car. To Will Rambeau

Im training to be a helper, and i believe that to be an effective helper you have to be threatening (hard) helper. Can you explain how you get a dog to turn and run, ive never seen this done before. Dont get me wrong i dont doubt you for a second. Im just really interested in helper work and am interested in your point of view and methods.

Also posts from any other helpers more than welcome.

thanks.


This is a reply to a message posted in the social aggr thread, but i thought enough tangents had already been posted in there.

Will - I'm a threatening helper,... If I menace a dog and do not use much prey motion,... you'd be amazed at the number of dogs that will retreat...


I'm wondering what help this would be for a dog that just starting or one needing to build confidence? So are you just called out to work vetern dogs or dogs needing defense brought out??? Mistakes can break some dogs, here.

Is this a sign of a poor helper or a weak dog? Not trying to slight you but it seems strange. I don't have your time in or skill. But I do question this method.

Why shouldn't the dog win all the time in training?? Why make him show avoidance?

After you break a dog/make him retreat, how do you build the dog back up?

I'm puzzled as to why do that? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Hello.....first of all I'm not speaking for Will, but I'm guessing that Will would have had the owners permission to ***TEST*** the dog to see if it would run in a defensive situation.
You wouldn't train like this on a young dog, or a dog that is just learning how to bite.

Not to speak for Will but I'm going to go ahead an assume (which probably makes me wrong <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) that the goal is not to chase the dog off the field. Rather, he tries to build the dog up using a combination of defense (threatening moves) and prey. The dog is given the opportunity to work at a higher level when it is ready to do so but pressure can be relieved at any time by the helper.

I've seen this done with varying results. It was very successful when the helper had the skill to read the dog and a failure then the helper didn't and kept pushing the dog until it went into avoidance.

If I'm wrong I'm sure there will be a post from Will shortly. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Anyone can catch mature solid dogs. Anyone (ofcourse not persons with inborn fear of dogs) can make weaker dog run away. Doing that does not make you a good helper.

Someone got the wrong picture...

Ivan is correct! Its easy to screw a dog up. If you dont know what your doing, dont push a dog to its limits.
Ivan, Im not sure I would agree that anyone can catch a mature dog!
Its this simple. The owner is not very important! The handler is a little more important! The T.D. is a little more important! And the helper/decoy os at least80% of it. And there is a hell of a lot more to it than taking a bite.

Ron

 Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Cox:
Not to speak for Will but I'm going to go ahead an assume (which probably makes me wrong <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) that the goal is not to chase the dog off the field. Rather, he tries to build the dog up using a combination of defense (threatening moves) and prey. The dog is given the opportunity to work at a higher level when it is ready to do so but pressure can be relieved at any time by the helper.

What you're describing is early defense work which does involve "buiding the dog up". Will is talking about something different. The level of pressure he is describing is something reserved for high-level PP dogs or PSD's, dogs to whom the handler may well be trusting his own life. In that situation, you better find out on the field if your dog will bolt so the helper comes out with the goal of making the dog bolt. We have a masterful helper at the club (in addition to the inimitable Mssr. Rambeau) who likes to joke about all of the money he's won betting K9 officers he can run their dog off of the field. Better to find out there than when some screaming crackhead is charging you with a machete.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Bryant:
Ivan, Im not sure I would agree that anyone can catch a mature dog!
Its this simple. The owner is not very important! The handler is a little more important! The T.D. is a little more important! And the helper/decoy os at least80% of it. And there is a hell of a lot more to it than taking a bite.

Ron

Ron, i was saying that it is easier to catch big bad PH1 dog (scream like mad man, _TRY_ to hit him befor he hits you, and be lucky if you dont fall down). Ok, not that simple but much simpler than building a young dog. And with SchH dogs there is amortization also.

I agree with you Ron, helper work is not macho "i take bites from dogs and make them run away".

What John said was the truth of my statement in another post - it's done as an extreme form of testing, and done with the owner's consent.
Obviously, this is done only on PPD's ( or candidates for that training ) that are of the proper age.

99.9% of Helpers don't need to be able to do this at an extreme level, unless they specialize ib PP or Police agitation.

Tim - many, if not most dogs need clues to go into the display that you see on a SchH field, ie, the helper with a sleeve or prey item. Yes, you can fire off defense in the dogs with the whip and light actual contact, but the thing that drives many dogs into retreat is what I call "menace stalking". You look eyes with the dog and never look away, and you stalk towards them in a threatening fashion, but without yelling or arm waving. Yoo'd be amazed at the niumbers of dogs ( good dogs, we're not talking pets here, but actual trained SchH dogs ) that can't handle that stress.
You have to learn the acting for this, and old German taught me this style over 20 years ago ( he trained dogs for the german military, a very serious man ) Bernhard Flinks is very good at doing this also - both he and I did this for a future patrol dog of Kevin's at the last seminar.

Don,
No it's obviously *not* for beginning/ young dogs, it's done as a selection test for an advanced type of training, ie , real world protection training. It's not a training tech. No sport dog would ever need to see this test. Sorry that wasn't made clear.
And I don't consider myself a "poor" trainer, sorry. :rolleyes: I think you're not understanding the level of training that this is occuring at - if a dog retreats, it's not suitable as a high level protection candidate.
And our club, like a lot of clubs that are lucky to have multiple helpers, use different helpers for different phases of training ( the fast helper is the "prey" helper, I'm defensive by nature, so I'm a defense helper )

Jeff, you're right if the work is being done from a training standpoint, but the adavanced menacing is done as a selection test.

I disagree with Ivan about anyone can catch a mature dog - sure, I guess so, if you don't mind broken teeth and cervical injuries on the dogs from an improper catch on the courage test. Which I've seen more times that I'm comfortable with. Or watching helpers that can't read a dog or haven't come out of the 1970's that are back tying very young dogs and trying to put them in defense at age six months. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
That's why DVG has a good trial certification program for helpers, and SchH USA has more and more helper seminars to train people in both basic and advanced helper work.
And I have no idea what you mean by the comment "Someone got the wrong picture..." Care to explain?

I'm very picky about who works my dog because as Will stated, too much can go wrong with an inexperianced helper. I have a very fast and quick dog who likes to hit center mass... I only let one decoy take long sends from my dog. One bad hit can cost thousands of dollars and set back my training months.

I like to think that the best helpers learn to truly read the dog and see what the dog needs in terms of training. It's way too easy to put too much pressure on a dog and drive it "into the fence" but a good helper will be able to see the signs of stress on the dog and will be able to build up that confidence.

I work mostly with police dogs and I like my training to be very realistic and very tough both physically and mentally for the dog. Today we worked a new police dog for another department that's been on the street for 3 days. He's 2 years old. He had very nice grip and was well focused on the decoy. One thing I did notice was that he has not had alot of defense put on him in the past. When I rubbed him with the clatter stick or made a stick strike on the stake out line he would come off the bite. I know now where we stand with this dog and what we need to do in order to bring out this dog's potential.

Helper work is an art form..... I wish more people took the time to learn to paint.