I was curious to know if anyone on the board has a PP dog and could elaborate on what exactly is meant by a PP dog and what is the intended utility.
At a naive level, its hard to understand why anyone would want the extra liability of owning a PP dog (i.e. put foot in mouth)when even the untrained Fido can scare away the bad guys in most cases. Or is it that PP dog owners are fat cats who only worry for their lives and liability is the least of their concerns?

Let me start by saying that owning a good PPD IS NOT A LIABILITY. If your training is sound, and you are very responsible there is no liability. No more than owning any protective dog. In fact dogs trained in protection work are less likely to bite someone because they are trained to respond apropriately in different situations. I feel much more comfortable around PPDs than I do around untrained protective breeds that don't understand human aggression and don't know how to respond in most cases.

Now, I have personal protection dogs. I have owned them for around 10 years.

There are a lot of reasons, one reason I own them is security. In my business I don't make a lot of friends, in fact I have received three death threats in the last 5 years. I work long hours, family is home alone often, so I have created my own little fort complete with protection dogs, security system, and physical barriers. I consider what limited liability (I don't even like saying liability because that only applies if you have a crap trained dog and are a crap head that can't keep his dogs under control or contained.) there is involved in owning a trained dog a minor negative to a long list of major positives.

Another reason is because I have a family history in GSDs. Going back about 85 years we have owned and trained GSDs in some capacity or other. The GSD is a working dog, we train and breed and own them to work.

Yet another reason is once I started learning about protection training and police service training I GOT THE BUG! It is fun. I train for enjoyment. I always enjoyed sport, but honestly wasn't very good at it to start with. I seem to have a nack for protection work and picking dogs. My protection training is an extension of Schutzhund because I title my dogs and then move on in protection training. I have since returned to sport training because it presents a challenge.

Did I mention this one yet. THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG IS A WORKING DOG, PROTECTION IS GOOD WORK. YOU SHOULDN'T OWN A GSD UNLESS YOU WORK HIM IN MY OPINION.

Even if you don't have a job where you irk people, there is a good reason to have a trained dog. You never know what is going to happen out there.

Do you consider PPDs the same as sport dogs? I think the liability is probably exactly the same for people that train for Schutzhund or French Ring as it is for people that train (legitimately and correctly) for PP. A court isn't going to make a distinction I don't think. Both are bite training.

I also think protection training is important for breeders of working dogs. Sport and personal protection and police service training allow you to judge your dogs and breed solid capable working animals. If it wasn't for Schutzhund the working GSD would be long gone.

There is nothing wrong with protection training if you are doing it right. If you are a ghetto, redneck, gang banger, back woods, homie, white trash, drug dealing, drug shooting, underbelly of society, criminal out training crack dogs to guard your stash and fight in the pitt you are a jackass to begin with and should be in jail or dead. Those are the types that give protecton training a bad name. I am starting to see more of those types entering into the legitimate sports. That is a sad state of affairs.

I don't consider well trained personal protection dogs a liabiliy. If someone attacks you, breaks into your house, or goes after your kids, I would like to see them try to take me to court. The legal system isn't that bad. You just have to know your laws and be careful. My dogs will NEVER accidentally hurt anyone.

Oh, yea. . .

A PPD is a dog that is trained to defend you in a real life situation. By practicing more specific protection skills in a realistic way and ensuring reliability. Either at home or away from home. Some differences between a SchH dog and a good PPD are bite targeting to make the dog a more effective fighter and practicing in different types of environments that one wouldn't encounter on the sport field. The utility is to add a layer of defense to your total personal security plan and intimidate potential bad guys. The real bad guys your dog engages in order to protect you and buy you time to react.

The advantages to having a trained dog, rather than a scary protective dog are control (super important), practiced and dependable skills you can rely on, and a physical barrier between you and the boogie man. A helping mouth in case of a real fight.

Vancamp: Bravo.. what a reply

Originally posted by VanCamp:
Let me start by saying that owning a good PPD IS NOT A LIABILITY. If your training is sound, and you are very responsible there is no liability. No more than owning any protective dog. In fact dogs trained in protection work are less likely to bite someone because they are trained to respond apropriately in different situations. I feel much more comfortable around PPDs than I do around untrained protective breeds that don't understand human aggression and don't know how to respond in most cases.

Really well said. I completely agree if we are talking about a genetically sound, properly trained dog, I am waayyyy less worried about an accidental bite.

A correctly trained and mentally sound PPD has confidence, IMO this is the most important issue. A dog who has repeatedly had his courage built up is not a dog prone to accidental biting ie he's not a fear biting spookazoid.

If sound genetcially as well as properly handled, the dog is also discrimminating. He knows what a genuine threat looks like, he knows he can defeat any adversary so there is no need to panic.

I was hoping that Richard might jump in here also.

Spookazoid, cool word.

VanCamp
Very well put. I believe any breed of dog that was bred to perform a function, should be able to do just that. Well......lap dogs, but are they really dogs <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ? Good breeding and, as you say, control(super important)are the keys to success with any dog.

Sorry Van Camp, I was out training my dog to bite for real.

I won't live in a large city again with out a protection dog. Break ins, home invasions and the like create a good reason to have a dog. Since you are more likely to be able to have you and the dog survive if the dog is trained that is good reason. In addition, as Van Camp pointed out, a trained dog is much less likely to make an untended bite.

In reality there are lots of reasons to train a protection dog beyond just the protection aspect of the training. Starting with the fact that it is fun. You get to spend hours with your dog that you might not otherwise spend. This creates a bond with the dog that is not likly to occur in other methods. The dogs like to do the work. If you don't believe it watch those tails start wagging as soon as they know they are going out to work.

It also increases the control you have over the dog. Properly bred, the protective breeds will protect if you want them to or not. So the question becomes how is that going to be controled. Are you just going to hope that when the time comes you can get and maintain control, or would you rather know you can because you have done it hundreds of times? Are you sure that in the excitement the dog wil listen, or that you will give the right command? Excitement is a funny thing, I have seen a lot of people give the wrong command in a training situation, think it might not happen in the real thing? Repition of the commands will ingrain them in the handler and increase the chances that the right command will be given. You will also learn through training what will get teh dog to react, that means that you can anticipate when you may be getting in to a problem. It will also teach you how to read the dog. That is important to prevent an accidental bite.

Like I said there are lots of reasons to train, ego isn't even a very important one.

We believe in PP dogs because:

Approximately 1.5 years ago our business was robbed. Two armed gunmen came into our business and preceded to steal everything we own. In our business, we tie everything we own into inventory. It would have been the end of us. We could have been killed. Fortunately a Sheriff arrived at the scene with his trustly K-9. One armed sheriff and one well trained K-9 took out two armed gunmen in a robbery/turned hostage situation. Wow one armed sheriff and one dog.

Our new GSD puppy carried the sheriff dept name and every customer applauds his precence in our store. Just as a deterent the dog is productive. But I figure having him untrained is like having an empty gun. The dog is 1.5 years old, raised in the store and bite training since 6 months of age.
Do we feel more comfortable now? Yes of course.
People who think PP dogs are liabilities are nuts, There are some very bad people in this world and we have the dog (now dogs, two stores, two dogs right?) because we have assets. When it's your life or your assets, no contest.

I have run the dog by our insurance agent, no problem, cute, calm fluffy(long haired) GSD. Thank God I didn't get a Rott or bull breed.

Also, like Vancamp, we love training them. The bond is unlike anything else. Plus WE FEEL the handler MUST be the trainer if it's a PP dog.

Have struggled to do schutzhund, but our dogs have a job first, play later.

Many people I train with have similar uses for estate dogs etc. Most the PP dogs I train with have a role, but are the friendliest dogs you'd ever meet.

If you wonder why people want the liability, you've not really seen a PP dog. Watch the K9s some day.