Hi Everyone, first post.. Rookie here so go easy! This will probably be a long one.

I know how tough it is to make an opinion on my GSD without actually seeing him but I have to ask anyways. I want to know if you guys think he would be a good candidate for protection or Schutzhund training. Here's his story:

My GSD (Blitz) turned one year old last month, I did not get him from any sort of well known breeder. I got him from a Slovakian who brought his Czech-Slovak GSDs here with him and they had puppies before he could neuter the female (this is his story at least). My father who is Czech spoke with him about it at length.

In fact I couldn't even really see the parents for very long because they were kept on the lot as guard dogs. I still remember that as I walked up to the property two GSD'd (his parents) went nuts barking and grownling litterally launching themselves at the chain link fence as if they could jump over (or through) it and rip my throat out! At the time I knew nothing about dogs and should have asked him to calm them down so i could get a better look.

At one year of age Blitz doesn't seem to be very big he's about 72 lbs and pretty skinny. His colours are the typical black and tan, but his back is pretty straight unlike some of the other GSD's I see running around here.

He's been around a lot of other dogs but never into a fight (he's un-neutered). In fact if he isn't protecting a stick or a ball he will even back down from a little miniture pinscher. My friends dog, who he gets the most exposure to, is a problem dog (rottweiler, lab, pittbul mix) and is very aggressive. If Blitz tries to take something away from him the other dog will put him in his place quickly but never go full out like he does with strange dogs. This dominant dog could be affecting him negatively but strangely enough he is the only Dog that For the most part he is content to ignore 99% of the other dogs out there.

He is far more interested in chasing a stick or a ball (and bringing it back). He will chase the ball until collapse (which hasn't happend yet) and then get up for more, sometimes he goes so hard for the ball that he's kind of foaming at the mouth (its just saliva and dirt though).

He'll try chase birds outside or little flies in the house whatever moves is game! Loves the water but hates baths and the hose. At the same time he's pretty laid back but very easy to get riled up. All I have to say is "who's that in a loud voice" and he'll get up bark/growl and immediately inspect if anyones at the door.

At night if he hears the door knob turn he goes nuts. However he usually only barks if he has a reason. He has never bitten anyone or any animals and is good with little kids.

His lack of ability to hold his ground against other dogs seems to be his weakness though. I've only seen him get aggressive for a few seconds with another dog who tried taking away his ball, however when I called him off he did so immediately.

I'm not sure if his lack of aggression is due to his age. I mean he only lifts his leg up to pee about 5% of the time (he just started this) so he's seems a little immature still. Or maybe its because my family and I have spoiled him with all kinds of hugs and belly rubs (he's a pretty cute lil guy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ). On the other hand his prey drive seems high and i can see that he would have potential to turn aggression on and off like a light switch.

Opinions?

Dear Ed,
So you want to know whether your dog will be suitable for personal protection or schutzhund?

Okay, first of all you are emphasising your dog's lack of agression when dealing with other dogs - it does not necessarily follow that becuase your dog can't dominate other dogs, it can't/won't be good at schutzhund or as a ppd.
socialising your dog does not equate to letting other dogs kick the "you know what" out of your boy - so if you're not comfortable with what's happening - change it!
If another dog is giving your boy a hard time then just separate them! You don't have to put your dog in this situation - it won't help him "toughen up" and emphasisng this shows you might need some more information on what drives
a good schutzhund or ppd dog should have. You mentioned your dogs likes chasing/retrieving - that's a good sign since it indicates the dog has SOME prey drive (which is a necessary drive for sport/service)- to determine whether it has a lot of prey drive or just some you should be playing with your dog and getting it to bite a tug or toy - a dog that loves chasing/biting/pulling a tug is a good sign.
If your dog has no interest in this than that's not so good. One thing which will help a lot in determining whether your dog is likely to succeed as a schutzhund/ppd is your dog's PEDIGREE. Does the dog come from working lines or show lines - you need this information to get a better picture of what you are working with and its likely limitations - go back to the breeder and find out more on this. you say your dog is 1 year old and 72 pounds? Well others on this board will give you better advice, but that doesn't sound too bad to me - a fully grown male GSD might weigh anywhere between 80 - 110 pounds?? your dog might not completely fill out until it's 2-3 years old so don't panic - just feed the dog properly and let nature take its course.
The other drives your dog may need to be good at schutzhund aer Fighting drive & Defense drive (for the protection element of the sport) and good drives for the tracking (most dogs have at least some desire to sniff and track - you don't absolutely have to have a gsd from working lines to teach it to track in a decent fashion).

A couple of other things: the breeders dogs going nuts behind a fence - big deal! Many dogs can display territorial agression but it's a completely different thing to have them channel into agression to back you up on the street in a dangerous situation - dogs barking behind a fence is nothing special and doesn't mean much really.

You say you think your dog can turn its agression on/off like a light switch? that sounds good - but what work have you been doing with the dog to prove this? If you've been working with a tug/soft sleeve well and good, but if not how do you know ??

Good luck with the boy, why not take him to the nearest schutzhund club where experienced people can evaluate him??

Good for you being a rookie and asking questions! I'm a rookie too !!

Regards;
Dave.

Ed,

I'd never let another dog or person bully my puppy. It can do serious harm to his confidence. What I like to do is keep him away from any threatening situations and build up his confidence with playing tug and always letting him win and socializing him in non threatening situations. I'll protect him from ANY kind of situation that makes him run away.

He can be exposed to threatening situations but only in a positive manner. That is to show him that it's really not threatening at all. But he should never be allowed to be bullied or chased away by anything or anyone. He needs to grow up believing you are the only one or thing he can't whip in life. All fearful experiences should be overcome.

73 lbs at 1 year is a good size. I believe a fully mature GSD is about 85 lbs or so.

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ed, check your private messages.

Thanks for the tips.

I notice a big difference in the attitude on this forums vs the general dog owner. My philosophy has always been to let dogs sort out their own problems to a certain extent. If I saw Blitz get beat up by some other dog i'd break it up with a swift kick to ther other dogs head and that should do the trick. But I don't really feed the need to carry around mace or a big stick to fend off random dogs.

He's been pretty brave since day one, theres no dog he won't approach its only when the other dog starts growling and aggressive that he'll avoid confrontation. He isn't a fear biter or a leash lunger like the other shepherds i've seen. The only dog he really has a lot of contact with as I mentioned (sees him 3 or 4 times a week) is extremely dominant. Blitz understands that he is lower ranking than the other dog so I don't think things are to bad in that sense. The hierarchy seems to be in place.

Even in these examples though I guess I could intervene and sort of artifically 'Up' Blitzes rank in the pack by restraining submissive behaviour on his part and putting the dominant dog in his place when needed. Do you guys think it would be a good idea?

The area I live in theres a bunch of places where people take their dogs out for runs, hikes, swims etc. For the most part there usually aren't fights since most of the dog population here are retrievers, labs etc.

This is the first time of heard of the concept of actually physically protecting your dog from another dog. It kind of makes sense to a certain extent. I'm sure fighting does have an effect on temperment but at the same time i'm tempted to think the effects of fighting would be closely tied to genetics.

In terms of drive I think Blitz seems to do allright. When I play with him he loves to jump up and bite my arm. Of course he knows not to do this hard, but if lets say I wrap a towel around my arm he seems to understand that he can go harder. He likes tugging as well, he doesn't really pull much but instead just bites and holds on.

What I meant by potential to be able to turn on aggression is that I have a command that will get him riled up. e.g. I say it and he'll start barking, growling, the hair on his back stands up and he becomes alert looking for anything out of place. It doesn't work all the time though but I think the goal would be to incorporate that same sort of alertness into protection training.

Thanks again.

I think it depends on how much preparation you have done with Blitz from 8wks to Now @1 year old, and his genetics.

If you have just decided to try to make him a Protection Dog, you might be starting behind the 8 ball. He doesn't seem to have much preparation for this field, he has been sorta of just a regular house pet.

Being a GSd helps, and genetics means a lot but you can loose a lot, if the owner does not nuture and train to help develope an attitude in the pup at an early age.

I'd schedule a meeting with a PP dog trainer have him/her evaluate the the dogs potential. Its really hard to tell over the net, some people can look a the way a dog walks toward you what kind of dog you have. Or they can look in its eyes. At one year old Blitz is still a pup, have him checked out.

Some dogs at 1 yr old are ready to Rock and Roll, don't try to stare them down!

I know owners that really think they have tough dogs and really the dog is fearful and will fold (hide behind its owners) if approached even in progressive prey movement.

I remember this Custom Treasury Officer showing off his Rigdeback, he was really embarassed because as we approached it hind behind leg peeking between his knees. Good thing it was on leash or it would have ran away. Thats not the reaction he wanted. Man did he get ribbed.

All is not lost but it doesn't sound like you put much thought into this until now.

"Blitz" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> he has the name for it.

Good luck

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ed Briza:

Even in these examples though I guess I could intervene and sort of artifically 'Up' Blitzes rank in the pack by restraining submissive behaviour on his part and putting the dominant dog in his place when needed. Do you guys think it would be a good idea?

I don't think so <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I did that; only there was hierarhy in my case as both dogs lived with me - here i don't know. I 'ranked up' submisive dog and guess what? he shure as hell got his a** kicked first time i was not looking...aaah so that was the look in his eyes - "don't do it he'll kick me even more". Pack dynamics are for dogs to settle, i just want to be alpha and not get any of them injured.

I think that dog agressive and dominant animal would be more throuble than good down the road with pp dog.

This is kind of getting off topic but I'm pretty choked. Today I was at the park throwing the ball around when out of no where comes strutting a male pitbull. No owner in site and he's off leash.

I knew he was trouble right away and tried standing between him and Blitz yelling commands. The owner managed to call him away the first time. I should have known better and left.

He came back a second time and went for Blitz's ball. It was chaos after that. They went at it for a bit and Blitz actually managed to back the other dog away. I could tell the pittie didn't want to back down though and was getting more and more fired up. So I stood in between them as best I could trying to control Blitz while also trying to boot the other dog in the head.

This time the owner came and physically restrained his dog asking one his friends to hold his dog. We talked for a bit and he apologized. The thing is the whole time the Pittie is foaming at the mouthing growling barking, rampaging, so his friend got scared at let go AGAIN.

This time my adrenaline is pumped and I step in between the two dogs again yelling throwing kicks whenever the mutt got near. The clueless owner (some wannabe lil homeboy...) has no idea how to handle his dog. Even asks me to let go of Blitz (I was restraining him). I let him go, not because the pit owner asked but because I figured if worst comes to worst I'm gonna help my dog with this one.

Finally the other owner gets a hold of his little bag of hell and I notice that his dog tries to attack him while he's pulling him away!!!

He says sorry again, I continue throwing my ball like nothing happend. Blitz retrieves like nothing happend.

Maybe it's time to start carrying pepper spray.

Like I said, they carry it at pet smart. Like I said tie it to your leash so you dont ever forget it, and hose down any dog that messes with either of you. If you get chalenged for that say that YOU felt threatened and then they legaly cant say anything. I deal with dog aggressive and just plain aggressive dogs alot. Most of the time when a client comes to me and has a dog aggressive dog it is because another dog atacked it. If you want to do any kind of training with this pooch of yours then you don't want it to become dog aggressive. can you imagine it trying to kill every dog it sees in compitions? Not fun at all. It is good that your guy saw you protecting him. I personally would want more between myself and a pit than my shoe, but thats just me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Keep doing your research with ed's articles, then take him to a good trainer for eval. they will be able to better tell you than we can over the net. It would be worth it as you seem to have an intrest in doing it right, not one of these "my dog is tough s@#% cause it barks at everything it sees and I can't controll it, and am clueless" types

ps sorry for the terrile typing, but my 18mo baby is "helping" me post <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> :rolleyes: