Hello:

As this is my first post I'll introduce myself: Andrew May, of Hillview, Newfoundland, Canada, training a Beauceron for her B.H. (trial end of July). I've got the Schutzhund bug and seem to be re-organizing my whole life to do more of it!

I've seen some discussion concerning adding some Malinois blood to the GSD gene pool and thought I'd try to understand how this would be done and what some of the implications might be. I'm aware that this is done to produce F1 pups: most of which I presume are genetic "dead ends" not perpetuated in working lines.

My lack of experience in breeding and training (so far)limits my insight into this stuff and I'm looking forward to reading what those who do the real committed work of producing pups have to say in response.

It is my understanding that the basis for the suggestion is that bringing in Malinois blood could help bring the breed closer to the Van Stephanitz ideal of a more moderately sized, less extremely angulated, agile, fast, courageous animal. I've seen this opinion attributed to Helmut Raiser but have not been able to find any quote or other first hand account from him and cannot confirm this as his opinion. I have no idea if there are others in the working GSD community who might entertain this view.

I wonder also what lines of working GSDs may already have an influence from the dutch and malinois shepherds: Czech? Belgian?

In looking at bringing in outside blood I see some obvious potential benefits (at least in theory) and a bunch of practical difficulties and problems.

Possible (but not always proven) benefits:

-hybrid vigour;
-lowering of inbreed coefficient of descendants allowing for overall lower COI or simply more subsequent line breeding with less negative health side effects;
-greater genetic variation to effect change to over-angulated rear end: seems very difficult to select away from this in GSD gene pool now (theory described in the Coppinger's book "Dogs": in fact, Coppinger argues that sled dogs keep improving because there is so much genetic material to work from, as sled dogs constantly infused with blood from outside crosses);
-better mothering: Scott and Fuller study showed F1 mothers were better than purebred mothers at care of pups and milk production;
-healthier puppies: Scott and Fuller study shows F1 puppies very healthy;
-maybe better nerves: sled dog breeders such as Egil Ellis (World Sprint Champion), and Mitch Seavey (2004 Iditarod champ with a team of outcrossed 3 year olds) report outcrosses result in more stable confident dogs, "goldadors" have very low failure rate in guide dog programs;
-maybe some of malinois drive into GSDs.

practical difficulties and possible problems:

-probable reduction in consistency of pups at F1, F2 and following;
-loss of certain desirable "hard wired" capabilities: ie genetic grip: need to "re-select" even more than usual;
-re-integration of subsequent generations of pups into GSD population: how to determine what is a GSD, by fraction (ie 7/8, or 15/16?), by jury, by standard, by fiat?
-notwithstanding averaging tendency of an outcross (Scott and Fuller) especially at F1 generation, greater unpredictability of outcomes of conformation and temperament;
-the desirability of these crosses being undertaken by the very best and most prolific breeders, who have reputations to maintain for production of consistent cutting edge pups. How to avoid a situation where this type of breeding is done with marginal dams and sires by breeders with limited experience, or, in at least one fairly successful litter of GSD*Mal PSDs I was told of by the owner of the dam, by accident.
-how to maintain the superlative GSD qualities.
-possible reduction of "extreme" working attributes on outcross, even if both sire and dam are themselves extreme: here I think critical working drives.
-all the impenetrable politics of dogs.

Respectfully trying to follow an idea through to a logical conclusion.

rgds, Andrew May

The Malinois and the shepherd were breed for different reasons. The Malinois was selected and breed to run across fields and chase off birds and larger animals from destroying crops. The GSD was developed in the high lands to protect livestock from large predators. With that said, IMO it is a mistake to mix the bloodlines. In the GSD there is enough of a solid gene pool to choose from that maintain the correct working drive and structure. Granted there are a lot of breeders who are messing up the breed by mixing bloodlines and or breeding crappie dogs from working bloodlines or other lines. Still if you do your homework there are plenty of great lines. Why try and reinvent the wheel.

ROFLOL

Mals were NOT bred to chase birds off of crops and GSDs were NOT bred to protect livestock in the high lands.


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



They actually have a very similar backround, if not the exact same backround. Both were formed from local herding and guarding dogs. Both did mainly tending style herding work, but were used for a variety of other rural duties. Both were brought together under the same circumstances and bred for other working purposes at the turn of the century. . .police service, military service, guarding. . .overall European continental working dog.


Both dogs have a similar genetic backround, have similar working attributes, have similar looks, and breed well together. . . as proven by the various mishmash bred KNPV dogs working all over the place.

I've owned a really nice crossbreed, and I wouldn't hesitate to own another one. . .or breed my own X litter.

Hi Andrew!

Ok this subject has been beaten to death on other boards lol...WHY reinvent the wheel? This has been tried before by others...much to their disapointment...

I CAN understand the need for outside 'blood' and the need to 'recapture' what once was...but why at the expense of another breed???

Physically and perhaps healthwise...I can think of several things a Mal can bring to the table...but what is the GSD going to do for the Mal (I'm not being sarcastic...very serious here)???? And please don't say SIZE...man, I've seen Mals (pure lol) weigh in at 80-85 lbs--esp. those with BR lines...it's not uncommon...Nor do I want this to get into the 'my breed is better than yours'...I honestly can't see anything positive stemming from this...

I feel the probable positive outcome of crossbreeding Malinois into the working GSD population would outweigh the negative impacts.


Here's why. . . .

Probable reduction in consistency of pups, loss of certain "hard wired" genetic behaviors (grips, etc), unpredictibility of conformation outcomes, and possible reduction of extreme working attributes would all be minimal in my opinion.

The two breeds are bred with very similar goals, so I have to assume that the genetics that produce high drives, grips, fighting characteristics, and trainability are probably very similar.

You breed a Mal to a GSD, you don't generally get flop ear dogs. . .you get prick eared dogs. You breed a high drive dog to a high drive dog, you should generally get high drive dogs.


Because they are more similar than almost any other two dog breeds on the planet, I think the odds of containing genetic variation in crossbreeding programs would be pretty good. I also think that proper melding of the genetics could bring a lot to the table for the working GSD breed, without loosing any of the major traits that we recognize and adore.



Call me a fatalist, but I can't see the working GSD breed survive another 20 years without SOMETHING done. I think this is a viable answer. . .so did Helmut Raiser. (There are various translated speaches of his on the net where he talked about using the available science on hybrid vigor to infuse the GSD breed with another group of canine genetic working stock.)




This isn't a new idea for the GSD breed, by the way. Max von Stephanitz advocated for an open studbook for this precise reason. Up till 1936 it was possible for a dog to be entered into the studbook as a "GSD". This allowed High Line GSD breeders to use "working stock" from the German countryside. Working stock meaning the unpapered, unpedigreed German herding dogs. . .who are the roots of the breed.

Von Stephanitz advocated against the majority of the SV's membership for an open studbook as long as he held control of the SV. He wanted to allow for the infusion of working stock (at the discretion of the breed wardens) because he saw the benefits first hand. It's a little odd in my opinion that the stud book was only unofficially closed after he was terminally ill and no further studs were entered into the book after his passing. I don't know if the studbook was officially closed before or after this death, but it was certainly done after he hand no further input on the matter.

Brigita, it isn't about what the GSD has to offer the Mal.

I think what Andrew is talking about is using limited Malinois blood to infuse the GSD breed, not the other way around. I think the Malinois is a bit better off genetically than the working GSD, and I wouldn't mind taking a little of what they have to offer to help my breed out.


And I take offense to the comment that others have tried and have nothing good to show of it. There are a handful of KNPV breeders who's dogs are pretty damn nice, and who also have GSD blood in them within 4 or 5 generations. I've imported a couple and both were REALLY nice.


I'll also offer for your consideration that the major temperement flaws I've seen in the Mallinois breed are not generally issues in the GSD breed. Thin nerves, handler sensitivity, and OC disorders. Mals might benefit from the solid nerve base of the good working GSD. I don't want to argue about it in this thread. . .but I think it could be argued.

Hello to Brigita, Robert and others:

I feel I should advise that I went head-to-head with Brigita on a malinois group discussing the role of KNPV in encouraging genetic diversity in the mal and dutch shepherds and conformation issues there, the effectiveness of a closed stud book in the world of thoroughbred racing, the depth of the "well" of genetic diversity in any pure breed.

I've learned alot from her, even if we sometimes disagree. I greatly respect her own vision of what a Malinois should be. I am almost certain in the next few years we will meet on a schutzhund field somewhere in Canada and if you let me Brigita I'll for sure buy you a beer.

I've had the "open stud book" bee in my bonnet for some time, especially since reading "Dogs" by Ray and Lorna Coppinger.

I note that the Beauceron has a "titre initial" qualification system to allow farm dogs to enter the registered population.

Of course its impact is now negligible as is presumably the role of "country shepherds" of Germany in the GSD.

rgds andrew may

I think this is already happening. I saw a shepherd from belgium that one of the posters here had on their website and the Mal traits were obvious. I don't know for sure, nor do I care but the head was too Mali to me. I have seen offspring from A'Tim that looked more shepherd than Mal. I would not breed that way personaly, but then again I wouldn't Know what I was doing. I also would probably not hesitate if someone offered me a puppy from A'Tim to take it and run, shepherd looking or not. I like dogs that like to work. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

We'll had this discussion before, of course.
I actually had a WDA judge use Fetz as an example that the Czech breeders bred Mal's into the borderguard Czech lines to increase drive. He said something like "See, notice this dog, his drives are too high"...and all the showline people with their crappy dogs all joined in to agree - although my score was over 10 points higher than any other dog in the trial.
*Sigh*

To see what a Mal with some GSD cross breeding looks like, take a gander at this animal:
http://www.capitalcanine.com/ourdogs.htm
He's the black Mal in the middle of the page, "Rex", and we've discussed him before on this forum. In my eyes this is one of the most powerful dogs in America. This animal is what a *great* cross bred should be like.

What the heck is "too high of drive" I know some ppl who think "too much" is "almost enough".