I recently built my GSD's aggressive alert with a scratch box. The problem now is that he gives false indications occasionally. Let me explain what I mean by false indications. While he is searching he will sometimes put one paw on the item that he is sniffing. i can tell that the drug isn't there by the way he alerts. HE always finds the drugs. Please help. Thanks

Highlander

A comment, and then a suggestion: A response, by definition must be, observable, measureable and consistent. If he is an aggressive response dog, I don't understand how just placing the paw on an object or area he is sniffing is interpreted as a respone. The aggressive response is scratching, biting etc. My suggestion: in behavior, any behavior that is reinforced is more likely to occur a second time. The reverse also holds true as well, any behavior that is not reinforced is likely to go away. If all the dog is doing is placing a paw on the object or area when searching, but not giving a response, I would first just ignore it. Repeat the command you use to search and continue on. I am still confused about the placing of the paw though, how does the dog check high areas etc without placing his paws on an object. If it is indeed a false response, then, I would conduct, what is referred to in behavior as: extinction training. Experience has shown me, the best way to do that is know the location of your targets (I think this is the only time a handler should know where the training targets are located on a trained dog)search the area tight, give the dog every opputunity to make the false respone, when he does, ignore it, take him quickly to an actual target, allow the dog to respond, then reinforce that response, (throw the toy or whatever your primary reinforement is). One other possiblity is the dog is cueing off the handler, have another handler observe you to ensure that you aren't doing something that cues the dog. Often times, particularly with handlers that frequently know the location of the hidden training aids, there method of working changes when they are in the immediate vicinity of a target. Dogs can be very perceptive of this behavior and they learn to read body language very well. When searching with a dog, whether it is training or an actual search, there will be many instances that the dog may stop and sniff very hard on a particular area, it could be food, an animal, or any other odor that the dog finds interesting. That behavior is not wrong. Wrong is when the dog responds on any odor other than a drug odor. My point to that is, if a handler frequently knows where the training aids are, they know that the sniffing behavior the dog is doing is not on a target and make the dog move on. In reality the handler is making the choice to continue the search not the dog. When that same situation happens and the handler does not know where the targets are, then the handler is unsure of what the dog is doing. That can lead to a body language or behavior from the handler that the dog percieves. In the end, it must be the dogs choice whether or not to respond or continue the search. I hope this helps, I know I've rambled a bit I was just trying to give some areas you might want to look at or think about. Good luck

DFrost

Highlander,

I meant to make one other comment, sorry about the double post. A lot of trainers may disagree with me, but it is my opinion, so here goes. Placing a trained dog back on a scratch box, is like taking a college student and making them repeat 6th grade. When experiencing difficulty in training, the difficulty level should be reduced to the last level the performed correctly. Then the difficulty level should be raised in increments that the dog can perform satisfactorily. In the principles of conditioning this is referred to as "successive approximation. One of my philosopies in training is: You will never know how good a dog can be, until you identify what the dog can NOT do. I use that to challenge my handlers when they are conducting thier required in service. When I see a dog that has absolutely no misses in training, then generally it shows me they are not getting all they can out of that dog. There is no such thing as the perfect dog. Anyway, just my opinion. HOpe it helps.

DFrost

WOW! Highlander...there is a whole world of excellent information in DFrost's posts. You need to read them several times.

Two observations on this topic:

Many times the handler cues the dog without being aware he/she is doing so, (remember, dogs are the absolute masters of body language) have an experienced trainer watch you to be certain you are not doing this. Video can also be of assistance in determining this.

Second, many handlers work their dogs too slowly, and/or too long. This is usually due to a lack of confidance in the dog or in themselves. Do a thorough search quickly and move on. I find that an intense dog worked quickly will often almost drag you to the odor because he doesn't want to miss his towel or ball.

Also, there are many other options to the scratch box, ranging from sand or gravel to pegboard, etc.

Videoing a few searchs may provide an opportunity to see any handler cueing that is being done. I would do several searches and compare them for subtle indications of things that may be cueing the dog. It may also provide information that something else is triggering this behavior.

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Placing a trained dog back on a scratch box, is like taking a college student and making them repeat 6th grade. When experiencing difficulty in training, the difficulty level should be reduced to the last level the performed correctly. DFrost

I dont agree. When you are training , you break what you want in small steps and different small drills. You dont need to train everyday the complete exercise.

If you are having trouble with false indication, step back and use scratch box.

When I use scratch box,I always use a set of 4 or six at least displayed in a room, inside a van, etc.

2 of them have impregnated toys, drug probe or drug bag. Others are just to test the dog.

When you do that, you train the dog two important things:

First: always keep searching - the first thing you find in a real world situation could not be the most important find in the car, house, etc.

Second: false indications will not be rewarded

Just ignore false indication.

Train with some distraction like clothes, garbage , cans, and you will notice that your dog will try to bite, to scratch other things. Make the game of working with you more pleasant for the dog than ANY OTHER thing. When you add distraction, YOU LEARN TO "READ" your dog. Your dog, I can assure you, behaves quite different when scratching for drug and when scratching anything else. look for his tail, body language, ears... Pay attention to ALL the dog, not just scracth/no scratch.

If you are having trouble in "reading" your dog, ask for the helper to hide the drug bag not letting you kwow where. - You make the search with the dog, when you understand your dog is warning you for drug, make a sign to the helper. If the helper signs back your are right, reward the dog.
If you are wrong, dont reward the dog and keep searching.

Take some time for you and the helper to work correctly.

Take some time to you to learn how to read your dog correctly.

Other day I trained in the street, my helper hide the drug bag inside garbage. My dog found a plastic with meat and blood, he started to bite and play. I bring him back to search and find the drug bag. Lots of fun and reward.

We have to train with this kind of distraction. Thats the way the drug dealers hide the drug in the street.

 Quote:

Placing a trained dog back on a scratch box, is like taking a college student and making them repeat 6th grade. When experiencing difficulty in training, the difficulty level should be reduced to the last level the performed correctly. DFrost

I dont agree. When you are training , you break what you want in small steps and different small drills. You dont need to train everyday the complete exercise.

If you are having trouble with false indication, step back and use scratch box.

When I use scratch box,I always use a set of 4 or six at least displayed in a room, inside a van, etc.

2 of them have impregnated toys, drug probe or drug bag. Others are just to test the dog.

When you do that, you train the dog two important things:

First: always keep searching - the first thing you find in a real world situation could not be the most important find in the car, house, etc.

Second: false indications will not be rewarded

Just ignore false indication.

Train with some distraction like clothes, garbage , cans, and you will notice that your dog will try to bite, to scratch other things. Make the game of working with you more pleasant for the dog than ANY OTHER thing. When you add distraction, YOU LEARN TO "READ" your dog. Your dog, I can assure you, behaves quite different when scratching for drug and when scratching anything else. look for his tail, body language, ears... Pay attention to ALL the dog, not just scracth/no scratch.

If you are having trouble in "reading" your dog, ask for the helper to hide the drug bag not letting you kwow where. - You make the search with the dog, when you understand your dog is warning you for drug, make a sign to the helper. If the helper signs back your are right, reward the dog.
If you are wrong, dont reward the dog and keep searching.

Take some time for you and the helper to work correctly.

Take some time to you to learn how to read your dog correctly.

Other day I trained in the street, my helper hide the drug bag inside garbage. My dog found a plastic with meat and blood, he started to bite and play. I bring him back to search and find the drug bag. Lots of fun and reward.

We have to train with this kind of distraction. Thats the way the drug dealers hide the drug in the street.

 Quote:

When I see a dog that has absolutely no misses in training, then generally it shows me they are not getting all they can out of that dog. There is no such thing as the perfect dog. Anyway, just my opinion. Hope it helps.
DFrost

Great words. Could not agree more.

Jose,

I don't disagree with you, I just don't believe in returning to scratch box work, with a trained dog. A dog that is already working the street needs to be stimulated more than simple scenarios using a scratch box. I agree whole heartedly that to correctly train a dog you break down the tasks into simple steps as you said. I think where we differ,(I don't return to elementary training with an already trained dog. I'm fortunate in the areas I have to train in. For buildings I have state warehouses, that have operating towmotors, people working and assorted distractions, that change daily. I also use an Army national guard base and have access to barracks that are occupied on weekends. For vehicles, we use the state surplus lot, so the turnover is great, all the vehicles are used, therefore have bits of food, and other asundry distractions. I have my dogs train like they work. I'm sure you have been in many houses etc on real searches that are just nearly impossible to replicate, good god, they'd close us down for something that filthy, lol. WE do however try to replicate the situations we encounter in the real world. That is, after all, where we have to work.

DFrost

Hi DFrost!!

Perfect!!!

Most of trainers feel afraid to train with the level of distraction you describe.

The learning curve is slower but dependable. I add distraction very early in training, and once its introduced, always train with distraction.

You can help highlander (and me) suggesting a way he could improve his dog's indication and "don't return to elementary training with an already trained dog".as you correctly warned.

I dont have a fully trained dog in narcotics. So I am working with scratch boxes in the street, inside buildings,bus, etc. as a normal step.
But in future, if I have any trouble like Higlander, how do you suggest to handle?

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am still confused about the placing of the paw though, how does the dog check high areas etc without placing his paws on an object

You have commented search in places above the dogs head. I am starting my dog in that. I am rewarding when he jumps and scratch in the wall, looking and sniffing up. How do you train your dogs?

DFrost, thanks for your time, its great reading your posts. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

This response is directed towards the trainer who said he did not believe in going back to scratch boxes with a trained dog. This is not only a mistake, it is a serious mistake. The solution to all problems in dog training is to go back to the basics. There is a saying in dog training called "LEARNING THROUGH REPEATING" - it takes a dog 30 times to learn an exercise, it takes the same dog 60 to over 100 repeatings to unlearn a problem and learn a new behavior. Going back to scratch boxes is NEVER a mistake and it ALWAYS helps cement a primary response and lock in correct ordors.

In fact dropping a scratch box on the lawn with a littl meth under it is a smart thing to do before you go into a meth search warant. I did it and I recommended it to the guys I train with. I even had a friend that would drop a scratch box on the side of the HWY behind his squad before he ran the dog around a vehicle he was going to search.

We had just as many great places to use for training, but this does not take the place of going back to scratch boxes.