Hi, I've been lurking for a short while, hoping someone would pose my problem to the board, but no luck! So here goes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My dog Joker is a 14 month old Red Heeler, who I rescued just about three months ago. When I went to meet him in a private home, he showed no signs of aggression or fear. We took him home and still had no problems - no fearful behavior, except that if he throws up, he cowers in a corner and won't come back to normal for a good half-hour. I am assuming that this is because he was beaten for it (though why, I can't fathom!) and not bad nerve, because it is the only fearful thing I have seen from him other than the problem I am writing about below). My husband and I, just to set things straight, have never yelled, tried to drag him out, or corrected him for being sick!

I took him through the groundwork described in Ed's article (crate training, feeding/sleeping in the crate, keeping him on-leash at all times, off furniture - I have basically been following it to the letter), and though he was a spoiled rotten little brat, he quickly came around. I have been going through basic obediance with him (using Ed's video) and his training is going marvelously well. He's a quick, smart pleaser. At this point he responds (most of the time) while under extreme distraction (even when an offleash toy poodle charged him and jumped on him during a walk).

Joker is very watchful of people near our home or car, but he doesn't display any aggression (or barking, but he will growl if someone comes up our stairs) as long as he is indoors. We have had a friend to our home, and Joker was fine. He gave one little bark when our friend knocked on the door, stopped when I told him to "quiet" and he was friendly and playful with our friend (without jumping all over him and acting crazy.) I have also taken him with me to my mother's home, where he was a model citizen (Better than he is at home!) and was friendly and respectful with my mom and stepdad.

Now here is my problem - on walks, my dog goes immediatly on the defensive whenever anyone gets too "near" (within 20 feet). He growls fiercely, hackles raised just a bit, tail up, head up, leaning forward and standing on his tiptoes. His ears are straight up and his body is tense. If they come closer than fifteen feet or so, he begins to bark as well as growl.

Because of the growling and the raised hackles, I have read this to be a fear reaction - am I wrong? I have been careful not to try to "soothe" him or pet him. I just keep walking and he comes along with me (I have read elsewhere to act like there's nothing wrong so the dog eventually learns that he has nothing to fear).

Am I reading my dog incorrectly? Should I be correcting him for this behavior? I can put him in a down-stay and he does it immediately, but he keeps right on growling. This behavior is displayed before men, women, and children, which has earned me a few nasty looks. I corrected him once (for growling at a child) so that he yelped - the child's father ran up and gave me a lecture about animal abuse and threatening to report me. (all while Joker continued to snarl at the man). For referance, I have Joker on a pinch collar.

I have tried to describe Joker's body language as accurately as possible. If anyone can give me any insight into what his body is saying, and what I should do about it, I would be immensely greatful!

I have spoken to several other people and have had some differing advice - Two people who also have heelers told me that he's doing just what he was bred to do - that he will always be suspicious of strangers and there's nothing I can do about it. Another told me that he was "hopeless" and I should have him put down before he hurts someone. For the record, Joker has never offered to bite anyone, and he doesn't display teeth. If this is the sign of a blossoming problem, I certainly want to stop it before it becomes more serious.

Thank you in advance!
-Khrista

I dealt successfully with "ambient growling" of a heeler that was directed toward my other dog with medium hard prong collar corrections at time of growling.

the first time he snarled at me as he yelped. the next time he just submitted and I quietly pet him (with the other dog downstayed a few feet away). So I provided his need: which was rank appropriate contact with me (as directed by me), with the other dog (a 66lb. beauceron) kept in check by me, not him.

then he stopped growling altogether, except in rough outdoor canine play. I do my part by controlling my other dog to provide him more "space."

my cattle dog barks at people with hackles raised until they come close and then he wags and becomes friendly. He is not at all territorial in his behaviour toward humans.

He views adults as people who pet him and kids as people who throw toys for him. basically all strangers are presumed to exist to meet these twin basic needs of his and are viewed as being beneficent.

unlike your dog I've had mine since puppyhood.

I'd consider correcting him for growling and then reward him IMMEDIATELY for refocusing on you using a reward that is more important than the approaching person: ie food.

my cattle dog is a pain stoic but emotionally sensitive. with this breed it is extra important to end with praise or reward for good conduct, even as bad conduct is punished.

Separately, I'd have approaching people give him treats if that can be done safely (no growling).

Cattle dogs certainly do defy characterization as "hard" or "soft", dominant or fearful.

My cattledog is very handler soft and can be submissive with me. However his relationship with all others is basically dominant: dominance expressed as imposition for petting with humans or demands for toy throwing.

this sulky deep response after vomitting is not surprising. there is something a bit wild, maybe "avoidant" about cattle dogs, perhaps from the dingo blood.

He will stand very square yet with tail between his legs which I think creates an impression of fear. Some dogs think he will submit. He won't. If they push it he will do one of those perfectly timed cattle dog presses and set them straight, then back to being stoic.

also, my cattle dog: you can't change his mind: you have to make him think he's acting in his self interest as he defines it. never force a cattle dog: correct yes, but force to do something? forget it.

I'm thinking if he is growling at someone, and they approach with food: he may not change his mind. You need to outsmart him: maybe have a known person approach with an unknown person, each give treats.

At 7 and 40 lbs. my cattle dog cannot physically compete with my 3 year old 66 lb. beauceron, also a dominant dog. when he tried she pinned him. yet he still can force her to retreat with her food bowl and for this reason they are fed separately.

rgds andrew may

I dealt successfully with "ambient growling" of a heeler that was directed toward my other dog with medium hard prong collar corrections at time of growling.

the first time he snarled at me as he yelped. the next time he just submitted and I quietly pet him (with the other dog downstayed a few feet away). So I provided his need: which was rank appropriate contact with me (as directed by me), with the other dog (a 66lb. beauceron) kept in check by me, not him.

then he stopped growling altogether, except in rough outdoor canine play. I do my part by controlling my other dog to provide him more "space."

my cattle dog barks at people with hackles raised until they come close and then he wags and becomes friendly. He is not at all territorial in his behaviour toward humans.

He views adults as people who pet him and kids as people who throw toys for him. basically all strangers are presumed to exist to meet these twin basic needs of his and are viewed as being beneficent.

unlike your dog I've had mine since puppyhood.

I'd consider correcting him for growling and then reward him IMMEDIATELY for refocusing on you using a reward that is more important than the approaching person: ie food.

my cattle dog is a pain stoic but emotionally sensitive. with this breed it is extra important to end with praise or reward for good conduct, even as bad conduct is punished.

Separately, I'd have approaching people give him treats if that can be done safely (no growling).

Cattle dogs certainly do defy characterization as "hard" or "soft", dominant or fearful.

My cattledog is very handler soft and can be submissive with me. However his relationship with all others is basically dominant: dominance expressed as imposition for petting with humans or demands for toy throwing.

this sulky deep response after vomitting is not surprising. there is something a bit wild, maybe "avoidant" about cattle dogs, perhaps from the dingo blood.
He will stand very square yet with tail between his legs which I think creates an impression of fear. Some dogs think he will submit. He won't. If they push it he will do one of those perfectly timed cattle dog presses and set them straight, then back to being stoic.

also, my cattle dog: you can't change his mind: you have to make him think he's acting in his self interest as he defines it. never force a cattle dog: correct yes, but force to do something? forget it. I'm thinking if he is growling at someone, and they approach with food: he may not change his mind.

At 7 and 40 lbs. my cattle dog cannot physically compete with my 3 year old 66 lb. beauceron, also a dominant dog. when he tried she pinned him. yet he still can force her to retreat with her food bowl and for this reason they are fed separately.

rgds andrew may

Andrew, thank you very much for your responses! I've tried to find a cattle-dog specific forum but have had very little luck. I feel fortunate to have found someone here who has experience with the breed.

The contradictory behavior that you described is exactly why I've been struggling to figure my dog out. I thought perhaps that the dingo blood might be a cause behind this, but I wasn't able to find any resources on them to confirm the thought.

I actually have begun to correct him when he growls at strangers, and he's figuring it all out very quickly. When we near people on walks I'll put him into a sit and just let him watch them. He stays wary now, but no growling.

I did have a happy experience where he was watching a man calmly, till he began to act very threatening (slamming his hand on a table, flailing his arms). Joker went into a fury and the guy left. He got lots of praise for that one! Since then, he seems to have figured out that I want him to growl at threatening people, not normal people. It's nice.

Thanks again for your response. It's greatly appriciated!

-Khrista

Hi Khrista:

good luck.

From what you've posted I think you'll do fine with this dog.

on praise for a correct response to an alarming person:

I'd caution that this may risk creating a shade of grey when for dogs it is best to keep things in black and white.

maybe a compromise would be no praise, no correction.

(I hope an expert or two is looking over my shoulder on this one)

one of the risks of course is that small boisterous kids are often "alarming people".

For my cattle dog, when around kids I like to see him in the mood for play engagement: calm happy look, gently wagging tail and the toy drop right in front of the kid. I minutely supervise all such encounters and send all the right vibes and give praise so that he is very comfortable in these encounters. I also control the kid. I don't want to do anything to encourage a growly or intolerant response, as this is too, too risky with this breed.

Likewise with a cattle dog I NEVER, put him in a position where he might be pestered by a child. Too, too risky with this breed especially, which is too reactive, too dominant for this situation.

On the other hand, I see no problem with training an ACD in sport protection work which offers a program for context specific aggression under control.

I've done some play bite work in prey, with a friendly decoy with my cattle dog. At seven he is a bit late starting, but despite the strong will of ACDs and the well known suspicious nature, I certainly didn't see any out-of-control defence or any risk of creating a monster.

have fun with your dog.

I know people like Will Rambeau have a sense of what dog will protect you, and what won't. Well, if you have a bond with your cattle dog I suspect he will at the least be a good deterrent and I suspect a bit more.

rgds andrew may

one more thing:

mine loves Bernard Flinks style drive building and obedience.

Not only the chase of the ball on string, but the cradle and the methods of teaching him to out the ball on string without conflict are great for cattle dogs.

rgds andrew

Thank you very much again for your response, Andrew. I believe I will take your advice on not praising or correcting in situations like the one I described above.

I don't believe I mentioned before that I would never trust this dog offleash, and I keep him away from children and warn them off if they approach acting like they want to pet him. I "rein him in" right next to my leg when kids are around and put him into a down. I just don't trust him with them, and I'm not going to risk a terrible accident.

I had been considering doing some bitework in prey, but I wasn't sure if it was such a good idea. Unfortunately I didn't know anything about this sport before I rescued Joker, which I am now highly interested in. Can you get an evaluation in a club on weather or not this type of training would be a good idea for a particular dog?

It's not something I would consider right at this moment anyway, until I get his obediance level up to par.

Thank you again!
-Khrista

Khrista:

At a Schutzhund Club there will usually be some sort of initial assessment.

I would look up Schutzhund on the internet and determine if you are interested first in the B.H. : the initial obedience/character trial.

in the meantime I would expect most clubs to want to see you in a tracking program and begin the groundwork for protection, which involves stimulation of prey drives and gradual increase in the challenge (and reward) for the dog.

my dogs love this.

most clubs would have the attitude that you don't have a serious dog for the sport and kind of hope you'll get hooked, and come back with a working lines gsd or mal that will really be competitive.

and you just might. or, your dog might just have the real goods.

I note that my ACD, who never bit a sleeve until he was 7, has a perfect full grip. his ball drive is mad, still. he is not civil (which means capable of defensive aggression+-). your guy might have more of this. he is younger and you have much more chance of success than I did with my middle age guy.

There is a woman on this forum named Ingrid Rosenquist? with a Sch. 1 ACD.

She has a website:

http://www.geocities.com/ingridnbuck/Poe_Man.html

and has done amazing things with her dog Poe.

she is an inspiration, and far better qualified than me to give advice on an ACD in schutzhund.

rgds andrew may

Thank you for the informatin Andrew. I'm almost beginning to think that I would like to train my dog up to be a deterrent on command. Can that be done? Just barking and the like. I don't want him to growl at my neighbors (which he's mostly stopped doing unless they get within three feet, I'm happy to say! But I'd like for there to be an "on switch" so to speak. I don't think I want to teach this dog to bite, as he's pretty sharp.

I would however like to get more of a feel for schutzhund before I make the decision that this is really what I want to do. What would be the best way to go about this? I know most clubs wouldn't someone there without a dog. I think in the future I would like to get a 'serious' dog and get into the sport, but at this point I'd rather like to do my research.

Thanks again for all of your information!!

As an aside, my dog has taken to SITTING on my cats. Is this dominance? I didn't think dogs generally viewed cats as 'pack members'

-K

I hope Ingrid Rosenquist picks up this thread!

quote: I'm almost beginning to think that I would like to train my dog up to be a deterrent on command. Can that be done?

*****I'm hoping someone with more training experience will answer this question. I'm sure the answer is "yes." with qualifications. they say that to teach a dog not to bark, you teach the command "to" bark first, and some say that to deal with a dog with a strong biting tendency or defensive character, you teach it to bite but only under certain circumstances. haven't done this myself.

quote: I don't think I want to teach this dog to bite, as he's pretty sharp.

*****Again, I hope someone else with more experience with "sharp" dogs will comment. I'm not sure this is completely correct. At a minimum I think it is advisable to teach him that it is ok to bite certain things: tugs, maybe even a sleeve, to make it easier to know what NOT to bite, and to correct for inappropriate behaviour.

quote: I would however like to get more of a feel for schutzhund before I make the decision that this is really what I want to do. What would be the best way to go about this? I know most clubs wouldn't someone there without a dog. I think in the future I would like to get a 'serious' dog and get into the sport, but at this point I'd rather like to do my research.

*****I think it is ok to go without your dog first to see how things work. there is an etiquette to club training that might be more easily learned without the dog.

You'll learn a lot about your dog with an experienced helper, in particular about the nature of the sharpness and how to shape his character, and indeed how serious the sharpness is as a temperament issue.

quote: As an aside, my dog has taken to SITTING on my cats. Is this dominance?

*****probably!

Given that your dog growls when people come close he would likely fail a Schutzhund temperament test for the BH. IMO it is much more important to work on reducing this growling than to encourage any defensive or warning behaviour. But you may be able to do both. A Schutzhund dog can do a "hold and bark" but can also pass a temperament test requiring it to hold a downstay while a crowd of people converge on it within six inches, with its owner outside the circle! Before the "hold and bark" or defensive training comes a lot of very positive prey type training: a foundation in positive prey training and confidence building.

I think that having strangers become toy and treat dispensers from close range, and for you to be supportive of this, may be a good strategy to change his attitude toward strangers.

good luck. I bet you'll do fine. cattle dogs are growly beasts but in my experience they often can and must learn to not growl, and growly doesn't always go to a biting problem. I think it would be very worthwhile to set passing a bh temperament test as a training objective.

AM