Escape training isn't about stimming a dog until you see a change in behavior. As my articles state several things happen at the exact same instant. For example, in teaching the recall, Stim is applied at the same time that the dog is pulled towards the hander. There's no delay, there's no waiting for a behavior. At the most, stim is applied for 1-2 seconds, often it's far less.

I've written an article here, http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/showf...rue#Post3190269 That discusses establishing dominance. Part of that talks about establishing the bond between the dog and the handler. Basic OB isn't the only way.

There's a basic difference between what some trainers want. Some want the dog to believe that corrections come from the handler and some want the to dog believe that it came from his own behavior. It's been my experience that some dogs resist corrections that come from their handlers, sometimes violently. There are many handlers and trainers walking around carrying scars from conflicts with their dogs that got physical. Often those handlers and trainers respond with force, sometimes quite a bit of force, helicoptering the dogs, choking them into unconsciousness, hitting, kicking etc., depending on how fierce the dog's resistance was. Using an Ecollar I've never had a dog respond like this. A couple of times I've had dogs nip at their handlers in protest, but I turned down the stim and it never went any further than that. I think that uses of force really negatively impact the bond between the handler and dog. The dog comes to fear, rather than to respect and trust the handler. Using the Ecollar divorces the handler/trainer from the correction and makes it easier for the dog to trust and respect him.

Those who say that Ecollars don't allow for a good bond to be built with the dog because the stim comes from somewhere else rather than the handler, I think, are overlooking what the recall, teaches besides the recall. It teaches the dog that the handler provides comfort. The handler becomes a "safe spot" because moving towards him and staying there, makes the stim stop. Nothing uncomfortable happens there. Usually this is the first behavior that's taught with the Ecollar. I've taught the recall to highly fearful dogs that I thought were going to bite me because they were afraid of the stranger pulling on their leash. After about ten minutes I'm their new best friend? I've done the same with highly aggressive dogs that I thought were going to bite me with identical results. Trust quickly follows as a result of teaching this basic movement.

Of course this safe spot shouldn't be allowed to develop to strongly or to last for too long with dogs that need to go away form their handlers to perform their jobs. This would apply to police service dogs, SAR dogs, agility, SchH etc.

I think that using an Ecollar and convincing a dog that it's his behavior that makes the stim start and stop, rather than it coming from the handler makes the transition to off leash go faster and easier. As soon as you take off the leash the dog realizes that the handler can no longer correct him. With the Ecollar as soon a the dog is given a command when he's off leash a stim is paired with it so it's confirmed immediately that he's in charge of what's happening to him.

I've trained dogs for many purposes. I've never come across anyone who has a stronger bond with their dog than police officers. They often put their very lives into the paws of their partners, relying on them to keep them safe. If anyone thinks they can build a better bond with another tool or method I welcome them to show me. Not a challenge, I'm just wanting to learn more.

Now don't type me into oblivion, but I don't get this

Quote:If anyone thinks they can build a better bond with another tool or method I welcome them to show me.

Are you saying that you are building a bond with an e-collar? Or are you saying that it doesn't destroy the bond?

Remember, short answer. I can't keep up <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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There's a basic difference between what some trainers want. Some want the dog to believe that corrections come from the handler and some want the to dog believe that it came from his own behavior. It's been my experience that some dogs resist corrections that come from their handlers, sometimes violently.

I PERSONALLY want my dog to think that if he doesn't comply with me, that the correction in some way comes from me. IMO, dogs that would react violently to a correction from the handler (by leash or ecollar) need to have more work spent on the relationship, regardless of what method of correction is used. A dog that reacts violently is either being treated unfairly and is justified in his reaction or doesn't have the relationship and respect for his handler to accept the repercussions for his actions. This type of dog should absolutely know that everything comes from the handler! This type of dogs already (in many cases) think they are running the show. Letting this type of dog think ONLY his behavior controls the stim is a mistake IMO.

I believe in letting my dog take some responsibility for carrying his share of the partnership. I want him to know that we are a team and that it's me that rewards and appreciates him AND it's ME that can dole out the correction or discipline.

My part of the partnership includes being 100% present and attentive when we are working. I expect my dog to be this way but it's amazing how many handlers chat with their buddies or are not emotionally present when they are working with their dogs. E collar or leash, this is bad training and the bond will be damaged or absent..

The great thing about ecollars is there are so many uses and applications for them...

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Letting this type of dog think ONLY his behavior controls the stim is a mistake IMO.

Cindy (and others who believe this way), just curious, but why??

Kristen,
the dogs I have experience with that would dare react with violence towards a correction are usually dominant and/or independant individuals. A relationship means that we relate to each other, right? A bond is a relationship that is close and hopefully enjoyable for both parties (me and dog)

If my dominant and independant dog thinks that he is in charge of when he gets corrected then I don't factor much into the equation when it comes to relationship and bond. He would theoretically react the same to a command or situation no matter who was present because he would feel that it's ALL about him....

I don't let my dog think the food comes from his bowl, it comes from me. The treats and toys and play come from me. The pack order also comes from me and this involves corrections and praise!

Dogs don't care what you name the "method" you use though, so I don't really get too hung up what it's called. Fairness and a real understanding of each individual dog is probably most important. There is no 'cookie cutter' method to train every dog. I want my dog to know a great deal of what he considers important comes from me, positive and negative.... it gives you a very important position in the eyes of the dog.

QUOTE: I don't let my dog think the food comes from his bowl, it comes from me.

Cindy can you explain this to me? Are you saying that the dog knows his food comes from you because he physically see's you handing him a bowl of food? That you are not just laying a food bowl down without the dog seeing you do this? Sorry I know this might be a stupid question but I'd still like to know.

Glenn

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Are you saying that you are building a bond with an e-collar? Or are you saying that it doesn't destroy the bond?

It's the latter.

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I PERSONALLY want my dog to think that if he doesn't comply with me, that the correction in some way comes from me.

During early teaching I think that the dog believes that the stim comes entirely from his own actions. But I think that, due to coupling, the pairing of the stim with a command, the dogs, after a while, come to believe that there's some link between the command and the stim.

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IMO, dogs that would react violently to a correction from the handler (by leash or ecollar) need to have more work spent on the relationship, regardless of what method of correction is used.

Some dogs from some parts of the world have handler aggression in their breeding. The breeders there don't try to remove it because it's almost a badge of honor when a dog bites his own handler. They think it shows how hard the dog is. Some of those dogs have been imported here. In over 25 years of training dogs for police work I've never had a handler bitten by his own dog from a correction. I believe in minimizing the conflict between them as much as possible. They're supposed to be a team, not on opposite sides.

I've found that new handlers, who use a leash and collar, over correct about as often as they under correct, depending on how they think the dog will respond to the correction. Even with an excellent bond, some dogs are prone to respond to an overcorrection, whether it's intentional or from inexperience, with teeth.

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it's amazing how many handlers chat with their buddies or are not emotionally present when they are working with their dogs.

I find that I can't talk to someone when I'm working a dog. I have to get my full concentration behind what I'm doing or I find that my timing is off and I miss cues that the dog is sending.

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If my dominant and independant dog thinks that he is in charge of when he gets corrected then I don't factor much into the equation when it comes to relationship and bond.

That's the point. Correcting him needn't be part of your relationship. A correction is you doing something that the dog doesn't like, it has to be or it's not a correction and won't change the behavior. I see no reason for the dog to perceive that I'm doing something to him that he doesn't like. I'd rather that only good things come from me, praise, food, treats, physical play; and that the things he doesn't like, corrections, come from his behavior.

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I don't let my dog think the food comes from his bowl, it comes from me. The treats and toys and play come from me.

These are the good things and I think that the dog should know that they come from you.

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The pack order also comes from me and this involves corrections and praise!

You needn't correct a dog to establish your place in the pack order. There are far better ways to do this that don't have the possibility of introducing conflict, especially for someone who's not yet adept at giving corrections in their history of working with dogs. For someone who is quite experienced, such as you Cindy, and can give exactly the correction that's needed this isn't a big deal. For those handlers who aren't, the Ecollar is a great way to get there.

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If my dominant and independant dog thinks that he is in charge of when he gets corrected then I don't factor much into the equation when it comes to relationship and bond.

That's the point. Correcting him needn't be part of your relationship. A correction is you doing something that the dog doesn't like, it has to be or it's not a correction and won't change the behavior. I see no reason for the dog to perceive that I'm doing something to him that he doesn't like. I'd rather that only good things come from me, praise, food, treats, physical play; and that the things he doesn't like, corrections, come from his behavior.

You needn't correct a dog to establish your place in the pack order.

I am ALL for using positive methods but if you think you can establish yourself as the pack leader of a strong working dog without letting him know that the corrections that he WILL need for SOMEHTING don't come from you, then I am afraid you need to come and spend some time with a dog or two here! We have a Malinois named Nitro that would love to test your theory!

The cool thing about pack behavior in dogs is that they fully accept and almost appreciate being "put in their place" if you have the proper relationship. You don't correct the dog to GAIN pack order but you use corrections in a firm, fair and consistent way if you wish to REMAIN the pack leader.

Dogs respect leadership, and a strong working dog is going to test you and the limits of that leadership. If you are not prepared to correct him appropriately then I am afraid you won't be the top dog for long. If you watch 2 dogs work something out, the dominant dog will dole out a swift correction without any hesitation should the subordinate dog need it... it's doesn't diminish the lower ranking dogs desire to be in a relationship with the dominant one. It's how dogs think!! why not think like a dog and be a better trainer?

this can be a very subtle thing in the eyes of the dog, but may still constitute a correction. A verbal reprimand is a correction to my dogs! Do I want them to think this doesn't come from me?? I think not. (and unless I am a ventriloquist, impossible)

And Glenn, to answer your question about the food. I never just put a bowl of food down unless the dog not only sees me with it, he must do something to receive it. It may be sit or it may be something more complicated but only I say when it's ok to eat. I put the food down and then the dog must wait until I release him. It's pretty basic stuff and very important to the dog!

Enjoy the rest of your evening guys, I am done with this discussion... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (I am not even exactly sure why the whole thread was started in the first place!)