OK, here's a doozie. This is a 2-part question basically covering 2 topics that is causing my husband and me a lot of concern.

It all started last spring when I was playing with my dogs in the back yard. I had just given them all baths, and the last one out still had wet feet when he ran outside. As he was running off the patio, his back leg slid out from under him, but he regained his compusure and did not seem to be hurt. I didn't think any more about it. Then we started playing ball, and as he entered into a full extention run he yelped then started hobbling around in obvious pain while holding up his back leg. My heart stopped, and the first thing that entered my mind was his hips. He hobbled back to the patio and layed down in front of the door while I tried to check out his leg. He let me poke and prod and maneuver his leg with no reactions, and only seemed to be just shaken up by the incident by this time. After a few minutes, he got up and started trotting around again like nothing happened. So I threw the ball, and once into a run he yelped again just as before. He would only favor the leg for 30 seconds or so, then could walk normally again, which led me to believe that maybe is was a muscle cramp. Then I recalled the slipping incident on the patio, and wondered if maybe he had pulled something.

After a trip to the vet and full battery of X-rays, they could find nothing. The Dr. manipulated his leg every which way with no reaction. He basically said, whatever it was, it had to be a soft tissue injury and would have to heal on its own. As far as his hips, they passed OFA rating from one of these X-rays.

Here is the problem #1: The incidents kept happening. He would go for days, even weeks with no problems, running and chasing like he always does, then out of the blue, YELP! Finally, we put him on low-impact activity for almost a month, which meant no running or jumping. Whatever it was that was ailing him, we wanted to give it time to heal. This seemed to do the trick, as he went for nearly 5 months with no occurrences. But a couple of weeks ago, it started again.

Problem #2: It is affecting his behavior. Once these incidents became a regular occurrence he began a conditioned response to them. He associates whatever activity he is doing at the time of the pain as causing the pain. In effect, this is true, but he becomes scared to go in the back yard. Normally he will run out the door with all the others when it's time to play, and he grabs HIS ball and the games begin. But during times of frequent episodes, he shuts down. While the others run outside, he gets a panicked look on his face, turns and goes straight to a crate. If he does decide to go outside, he'll go grab his ball and just stand at the door with it hoping we'll let him in so he can hide in a crate. He will obey obedience commands, but trying to get him to engage in play, or anything else proves a fruitless effort. It's also happened while he's jumping into the back of our SUV. Car rides are the absolute best thing in the world to him, but he becomes scared to jump in. After several days, or sometimes a couple of weeks this behavior will pass as if he's just forgotten about it, and he's back to his old playful, running and jumping self.

We take him on long walks and hikes involving steep climbing with no problems at all. It only occurs when his back legs are in full extention, and even then, at very sporadic times. We are at a loss for ideas and solutions.

So I guess my questions are these:

1. Medically, what could be happening with his back leg? Does anyone have any similar stories to relate?

2. Is there anything we can do to change this conditioned response behavior that is occurring? It is heartbreaking to watch, and sometimes we feel he may even be associating the pain as a sort of correction coming from us.

I apologize for the long and drawn out details, but I felt they were necessary to get the full picture. We are open to trying anything at this point, so all responses are appreciated. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

What a sad story Beth. I feel so sorry for you and you're dog because it's so hard to know what to do when you have no idea whats going on. Too bad the vets weren't much help. It sounds like you're dog may be experiencing a pinched nerve or some sort of soft tissue damage (tear). I have no personal experience to base my opinion on other than going through some muscle tears and sciatica nerve pain (myself) for several years. It has been my experience that the pains come and go depending on what I happen to be doing at the time. Sometimes I don't have to do a thing. Nerve problems and pain are like that. Regular x-rays will not show this problem but an MRI type scan can. Not sure if they do things like that for dogs though. I think you are smart to keep the activity level low impact and let you're dog tell you in his own way when he's up to more activity. I'll be interested in following this post to see if you can find out what the problem is. Good luck!

Thanks Glenn <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Pinched nerve and muscle tear are both things we have thought of and haven't ruled out. But what would a course of treatment be, especially for a dog? And how long is it supposed to take to heal, if it will ever heal? These are all things we keep re-hashing over and over again with no real satisfying solutions. I had never thought about an MRI. Not sure if that procedure is available for animals either. Maybe I'll make a call to the vet about that.

Beth, I'm surprised you're vet didn't want to explore you're dog's pain more than he or she did. Most Vet's are all too willing to try anything as long as you're money doesn't run out. Not saying you're Vet is like this but most are. Ok, now to answer you're question. I can only give you my unprofessional opinion. I would assume if you're dealing with a tear or a nerve problem it might be possible to repair it with surgery. Again maybe not! I would think that this could end up being a very costly venture so I would try and call around to different Vet's to see if any of them have experience with this type of problem or anything similar. I would get more than one opinion unless you are extremely confident in you're Vet's ability. A very good Vet can pin point the problem and take away all of the expensive guess work. The other option (and less costly) would be to do nothing, letting nature take it's course. If it is a soft tissue tear or nerve type problem the healing process could be a long one, with or without surgery. So I guess the thing I would do is NOT let you're dog do any running or jumping until you figure out exactly what is going on. My guess as to why you're dog was without pain for awhile is, possibly that the problem had "PARTIALLY" repaired itself (healed) but was not completely healed before the dog reinjured itself. Basically over doing it before you're dog was 100% healed. Just my opinion. I'm surprised you are not getting more ideas from the better dog people. Good luck as always. Let me know what you fing out.

Beth,

Just out of curiosity, how old is the dog now?

Chuck, he will be 4 in April.

Glenn, we actually do have the type of vet who doesn't like to do costly, but possibly unnecessary procedures, which can be both good and bad I guess. To be honest, we haven't pressured him too much until this point mutually hoping that as you said, the injury would eventually heal itself. But since resurfacing again after a several month hiatus, we are even more concerned than ever.

IF it is a tear of some kind, then a few months is not long enough to heal it. It will take like a year or so. The problem is that it will heal to a point that will allow for normal movement(within a few months) and then that normal movement will cause damage/re-injury. It isn't healing to a point to resist damage yet. (dose that make any sense?)

Try swimming that is the best way to add strenght without impact that could be bad.

Here is a funny story. I'm sure this isn't the case with your dog but it is a strange story about an injury. This dog that my mother had a few years back had to get one foot removed because of an injury. Anyway this dog for years afterward would run around the yard just like normal, but when my mother would come outside the dog would yelp and limp around in pain. Then mom would do the whole,"Oh, no whats wrong, you poor dog, come here, (lots of hugs and kisses and affection). Then she would take the little rat inside and give it a treat. The dog would only do this when mom was around. Never with anyone else. The little puddle, 'er I mean poodle, sure had mamma trained.

Beth,

Your not alone in this sitution. My mothers dog does the same thing. I believe my mothers dog injured a knee. He will be fine for months then out of the blue during some activity he'll scream in pain with leg held high and tucked. He goes on a round of Rimadyl for a week then he's better. It too has effected his behavior as your dog. He refused to jump on the bed, instead he crawls gently. He's "gun shy" about that now because he associates the pain with that activity. I believe that the dog injured the knee but didn't completely blow it. I work for an ortho company and after speaking to a knee specialist here I have formed my own opinion on the problem (after vet appointments with no answer) I believe he has formed scar tissue around an old injury and when doing something that puts an extended amount of pressure on that injury it pulls the scar tissue which is not very flexible. It causes extreme acute pain. After that it inflames the old injury causing him to be painful on and of for several weeks. Reducing inflamation is the key to healing injuries of soft tissue. If inflamation exists in an injury healing can not occur. That is why we put him on an anti inflammatory for a week. The pain goes away and he returns to normal. He is now on Grand Flex (glucosamine) for his joints. I have not confirmed this as a knee injury but after working in the vet profession for 8 years and orthopedics for nearly 7 this is my conclusion for this dog. Keep a watch your dog. If it is more than a knee injury such as a pinched nerve/disc problem then more extensive testing is needed and a specialist is in order. They will need to take a set of x-rays of the spine but the true way to see problems with nerves is a mylogram. That is a high risk test. They inject dye into the spine and see where the dye goes and stops. Where it stops is how they locate the injured spot. I would go see a orthopedic specialist right now and have him feel the knee for possible ACL tears. That would be my first guess. If that checks out OK then move on to checking for disc problems. Soft tissue injuries can take up to a year to heal if not treated properly. Good luck and keep us informed.

Beth, I'm glad to see some other people pitching in here. That's what's so nice about the people who belong to this board. There is a wide variety of experience and everyone is truely interested in helping. Like I said I'm no expert and I cannot argue with anything the others have said. I would like to throw in my two cents about a couple of things Karmen Byrd has said.

Karmen said: I work for an ortho company and after speaking to a knee specialist here I have formed my own opinion on the problem (after vet appointments with no answer) I believe he has formed scar tissue around an old injury and when doing something that puts an extended amount of pressure on that injury it pulls the scar tissue which is not very flexible. It causes extreme acute pain.

Again from personal experience of my own injuries I have to add that if "SCAR" tissue is causing the problem with an old injury (which is very possible) then the scar tissue should have "WOULD HAVE" shown up on the x-rays you're Vet took. But I'm not sure if you're Vet x-rayed the right area. Scar tissue can definately cause problems if it is hitting a nerve.

Karmen says: If it is more than a knee injury such as a pinched nerve/disc problem then more extensive testing is needed and a specialist is in order. They will need to take a set of x-rays of the spine but the true way to see problems with nerves is a mylogram. That is a high risk test. They inject dye into the spine and see where the dye goes and stops. Where it stops is how they locate the injured spot. I would go see a orthopedic specialist right now and have him feel the knee for possible ACL tears. That would be my first guess. If that checks out OK then move on to checking for disc problems. Soft tissue injuries can take up to a year to heal if not treated properly.

What Karmen is saying makes sense to me. I have been through 3 disc surgeries, (SAME DISC.) I assume that these injuries would be very comparable to what a dog would be going through as far as acute pain if a nerve is the issue. From what I understand Karmen to be saying is that you are probably looking at a soft tissue injury more than an actual joint problem. Like scar tissue a joint injury should have shown up on an x-ray. It may very well be that a mylogram is you're only option.

I always feel sorry for the average person always having to choose less effective methods of treatment because of "MONEY." I would have never made a good Vet because I probably would have gone broke trying to help too many dogs. I had to put a great dog to sleep one time because I couldn't afford the surgery my dog needed to repair a busted up leg. I cried, no I BAWLED my eyes out for two weeks straight. I don't wish that on anyone and to this day I keep a framed photo of her nearby. I hope you find out something and that it is affordable and painless for you're dog! Again BEST of luck to you.

Thanks so much for all of your input, and of course I welcome even more!

VanCamp: That seems to be what's happening if it is a soft-tissue tear. We'll just have to keep him on low-impact activity much longer. As far as the swimming goes, he HATES, I mean HATES water! We've tried to introduce him to it in so many ways, but he wants nothing of it. But he loves walks, so we'll just have to stick to that. The only problem is getting into the car where he has to jump. Maybe we'll have to look into getting a ramp. It would benefit our 3-legged dog too, as we always have to lift her in. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> As for the sympathy crap, I totally believe it! Our dogs have done the same thing, especially our greyhound, who is getting up in years and always seems to have one ailment after another. She can be running 40 mph one minute, then come running up whining with a leg up looking for sympathy and a treat. In fact, sometimes we actually think she brings them on herself so she can go to the vet and just be doted on right and left! She was in a really bad accident last year and spent about 2 weeks at the vet, near death. Now she has become their celebrity survivor and always gets top-notch pampering when she visits. :rolleyes:

Karmen: Our vet actually does specialize in orthopedics, so I think we will discuss the points you have made during our next visit. I'll have to check on using anti-inflammitories. We always have tons of Rimadyl on hand, since I never give it to my dogs more than 2-3 days, as long as the symptoms persist, so that leaves lots left in the bottle. Thanks for the insight!

Glenn: As far as the scar tissue showing up on the X-rays, the only X-rays he had were right after the first few incidents, so I doubt it was scar tissue at that time. Maybe new X-rays would show up differently, we'll have to see. As for the money thing, I hear ya! Fortunately right now we are not in a position where we would have to make such a tough decision. And I hope we never will be, because our dogs really are our kids, (we do not plan to have any "non-hairy" kids of our own <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ) and we will do almost anything for them. But at the same token, no one likes to throw money away on nothing! Thanks again for advice and sentiments.