Hello All:

Please weigh in with some advice/opinions about my situation.

After the unfortunate recent death of my GSD, who was a rescue dog rife with behavioral issues, most centering around human aggression, and most of which were slowly resolved, I decided to take in foster dogs as opposed to get another one with the intent to keep.

My first foster was successfully placed and is doing well, but the second one is at issue.

RANGER- 65lbs, gsd mixed with (likely) doberman. 8 year old Male, initially intact, now neutered. His owner got arrested in east harlem, de facto abandoning his dog who was collected by a foster agency who then placed him with me as a foster caretaker.

He can be extremely sweet, and shows me his belly, is good on the leash, mostly fine with other dogs. BUT he has displayed extremely inappropriate aggresive reactions. However, each time there have been some degree of extenuating circumstances.

1)First night with me, nipped at my hand a drew a small amount of blood when I came over his head too fast with my hand. I chalked that up to his being in a totally new environment.

2)Immediately after his neutering, as we were both lying on the floor, I was petting him gently when he suddenly latched onto the skin on the back of my hand, pulled it with his incisors for maybe 1 second. I chalked this up to being medicated.

3) Next day in an effort to get his protective cone over his head, he growled and bared his fangs. Obviously I attribute this to a fearful reaction to my trying to slip a foreign object over his head.

4)The worst incident occured when a guest came to my apartment. I saw Ranger stiffen and knew I had overestimated his guest tolerance, so I held his collar behind his neck and told him "no" and attempted to steer him away from the visitor and into another room at which point the dog turned his head in his collar and sank fangs into my forearm in a full-on bite. Not a fear nip, but fully engaged in the fight. He was probably in my arm for two to three seconds, then responded to me "no" commands and released and did not re-engage.

After i cleaned up my arm and returned to his room. He kissed me all over. Clearly aware he had screwed up.

I have come to the conclusion that this dog is all but unadoptable. I actually would keep him but i am forced to move at the end of the month into a no-dog building.

What I would like to do is take him for a long walk, feed him a big steak lunch and then have him humanely put down with me there(I'm all he has, sadly), thus leaving the world on a good note. So far, it seems that no Veterinarian will agree to do so. One saying they need a medical reason and one saying they want him to undergo a consult with a behavioralist. I would opt for the latter but as stated, I cant keep him past the end of the month.

My other options are 1)turn him over to the pound, where he will live in lousy conditions for a week and THEN be put down. 2)Turn him over to a no-kill shelter where he will live indefinitely in lousy conditions. To me, both these options are worse than MY putting him down my way. Your opinions are welcome. Also, if anyone is aware of resources in the NYC area that might help me put this good dog down in the right way, please contact me.

Thanks,
Brock

What does the foster agency that actually has ownership of the dog have to say? I would not think that you could just take a foster dog and have it euthanized without getting permission from the legal owners of the dog (which, is the foster agency).

In my opinion, this dog is running the relationship. I have done rescue myself and while you do have to take into account the dog's history to some extent, this dog gave you three instances of showing you he thinks he's the boss before he nailed you good. Making excuses for him on those first 3 bites did not help you or him out. Behavior liked this needs to be nipped in the bud.

Should you put him down? Haven't evaluated him so who am I to say whether or not you should but as a lawyer I would say the liability is extremely high in placing the dog now (Liability I would hesitate to personally accept).

With that said, I would recommend that you bow out of doing rescue, besides what looks to be a lack of understanding behavioral issues, you obviously want to unload this dog as you are moving to a building that does not allow dogs in 30 days. What would you have done if this dog had no behavioral issues and you still had to move?

I don't know if you are looking for absolution for your likely decision to give this dog a shot of the blue juice but since you are the person that knows this dog the best and you undertook the responsibility of it when you rescued it, you are the only person who can make this decision.

Good luck - no one said rescue was ever easy....

I say put it to sleep.

There are WAY too many GOOD dogs out there needing homes, don't let this one take up a space where it may just be a liability.

NOW.. if the majority of people that adopted rescue dogs were experienced 'dog people' then my opinion would be different.. but unfortunatly that is not the case. The majority of people who do adopt rescue dogs are either 'mom and pop', or 'mon and pop with 2.5 kids', both of which are equally clueless when put with a dog with issues.

Oh, I don't know if he should be put down or not. I'm relatively inexperienced with dogs in this forum, but like others have said, it wasn't as if he pounced on you without warning. There were clear instances where he put his teeth on you before "the big one," and drugged up or not, you shouldn't have tolerated it. Especially when he was in the new setting - bad idea to excuse the nipping just because he was in a new environment!

That being said, again as others said, there are too many lovely dogs out there waiting to be adopted. This kind of dog would be difficult to place, I guess, because most people who want dogs either for themselves or for the kids are too soft in temperament to give effective corrections. They treat their dogs like furry humans, which is demeaning. My favorite thing about dogs is that they're not human, and all that that fact implies. It seems you do a bit of humanizing yourself -

Brock said: "After i cleaned up my arm and returned to his room. He kissed me all over. Clearly aware he had screwed up."

Nah, you're projecting your own feelings onto him. You wanted him to think he'd screwed up. He's a dog - to him it was probably like, you were trying to dominate him, so he put you in your place, and now he's going to get some attention since he's the one in charge here and he wants some. As I said before, I don't pretend to know anything compared to other forum members, but those are just my thoughts.

I am in rescue and dogs that are at risk to bite anyone, can not be adopted. But, we also spend much time on training, letting the dog settle in, deal with health issues, before we make that decision. All dogs can not be thrown into daily life and live like Lassie in our homes when we are taking in rescues. We take it slow, but before we pull these dogs, we temperment test them first. We have had instances where the foster dog is fine and all is good, and we adopt them out, and there is a bite. We take the dogs back. Most of us keep dogs that are not adoptable. I know thats not ideal for everyone, but then we aren't moving. Without seeing the dog to evaluate it, its a tough one. On a personal note, I would probably not keep a dog that was biting me, let alone my visitors or family. If another rescue can not step in to evaluate or take the dog and give it a chance to settle, you are in a tough spot. Jaci

Thanks for responding. I appreciated the sympathetic and helpful tone with one exception, reprinted below, that deserves clarification.

Ingrid Rosenquist wrote
"
With that said, I would recommend that you bow out of doing rescue, besides what looks to be a lack of understanding behavioral issues, you obviously want to unload this dog as you are moving to a building that does not allow dogs in 30 days. What would you have done if this dog had no behavioral issues and you still had to move?

I don't know if you are looking for absolution for your likely decision to give this dog a shot of the blue juice but since you are the person that knows this dog the best and you undertook the responsibility of it when you rescued it, you are the only person who can make this decision."

To which I reply:
I briefly brought up my involvement with my prior dog (who had a host of behavioral issues and who was much larger and stronger than the current dog) mostly to attest to the fact that I am not one to cut and run and abandon/put down a dog at the first sign of trouble. So I'm bothered by the assumption that I'm trying to "unload the dog" rather than doing a small good deed in taking it on for a rescue shelter whose cages are full.

I would, indeed, be giving up the dog regardless of it's behavior, bad or good, in order to move residences. A fact that was set in motion long before I took the dog in.

Ms Rosenquist, I wish you hadn't gone so far as to recommend I get out of rescueing dogs. You couldnt know this about me, but I take great satisfaction out of providing for them and keeping them out of harms way. I make no pretensions to being an expert dog trainer or behavioralist, nor is that really the role of a short term foster. Your comments and their tone were resented.

The criticisms of my obvious tolerance of dominant behavior from the dog are more valid. I guess not knowing the dogs background, knowing that his time with me is very short, and some of the aforementioned circumstances (drugged state following surgery) all contributed to my doing less early on than I would have with a dog I had raised or knew I was going to keep.

Again, the mostly kind tone of the responses have been helpful.

I apologize if my message did not come across as I meant and offended you. I have been involved in rescue (to varying degrees) for almost 10 years. I tend to be a blunt person which does not always transfer well over the internet <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

One of the main problems I see is that people with GREAT intentions jump in head first into rescue and soon find themselves overwhelmed. This does not help either the dogs or the person. There are other ways of helping stray animals besides doing the actual rescuing - transportation, raising funds, community education.

Many rescue animals have behavioral issues and while I don't think that you need to be a behaviorist to rescue, you need at the very least someone in the organization to refer to that does know behavior and training issues. From what you have said, it sounds like you do not have that support. However, this is all moot since you are moving to a place that does not allow dogs.

Your response gave more info though. If you are fostering for a rescue agency, than decision should be left up to them. Obviously since you got this dog knowing full well that you would be moving in the near future and that no dogs would be allowed at your future residence, this dog was going to end up somewhere else anyways.

I guess I am not sure what you are looking for. If this dog is being fostered under the umbrella of a rescue agency, they should be the one advising you how to proceed. BTW, is this the heartworm positive dog that you posted about a couple weeks ago?

I commend you for taking is a foster dog in any situations.

I do see handler error in what you are describing. For instance putting your hand over a rescue's head on the first day. Also, lying on the floor with the dog. When putting a collar or cone on a dog, or directing it - these are common times to see aggression in a rescue dog.

I have done aggression rehabilitation with rescue dogs for a couple years now. With many of these dogs, the aggression is ended with fair leadership and a reasonably structured life. Some dogs that have been aggressive can become adoptable - it is a very hard decision to make.

If you keep the dog for any length of time, you must handle the dog as if it is a dominant dog. Practice groundwork as described in Ed's article.

There are many, many unwanted dogs out there, but very few good homes. If you decide to euthanize this dog, it could be the kindest thing.

Feel free to PM me.

quote: Ms Rosenquist, I wish you hadn't gone so far as to recommend I get out of rescueing dogs. You couldnt know this about me, but I take great satisfaction out of providing for them and keeping them out of harms way. I make no pretensions to being an expert dog trainer or behavioralist, nor is that really the role of a short term foster. Your comments and their tone were resented.

*****
All the information required to reach Ms. Rosenquist's conclusion is in your posts. Maybe you should just get out of "rescuing" 8 year old recently intact male guardian breed dogs with aggression issues with extremely questionable socialization, given your lack of skills and the apparent lack of back-up you are receiving.

Volunteer at a shelter and learn from anyone with skills and experience.

You are clearly in an untenable situation with this dog apparently with no support from whatever foster organization imprudently allowed you to take a dog beyond your ability level to train or even manage, on what is, clearly from your description, not a "short term" foster but an open ended arrangement. There appears to be no structure to assist with the difficult decision you are seeking help with on this forum.

You are in a bad situation and over your head. You should worry less about supposed insensitivities and deal with this reality.

IF Ms. Rosenquist's supposed critique has smote your feelings with such force one wonders if you are the type of person suited for dealing with dominance or aggression in dogs.

Ms. Rosenquist and the others have given you advice that if you follow it will result in you changing how you do things.

As to the dog: get the assessment the vet. needs and assess what to do at that point. I wonder who would want to put in the effort that this dog needs at age 8, if he is salvageable. Long odds. Whomever takes this dog needs to be ready to train him, seek advice, provide discipline and training.

On your admission that you are not a trainer or behaviourist:

more telling perhaps is that you do not describe yourself as being in the process of "becoming" a dog trainer.

get a dog when you are ready to make this voyage.

think about it, the scarcest link in the rescue chain is people interested in "becoming" dog trainers.

in the meantime reduce your risk exposure.

good luck. Andrew