hi all,
i read the new article on corrections:
http://www.leerburg.com/corrections.htm

and have some questions about the e collar corrections for use on 2 fighting dogs.

im assuming the concept is the high stim used in this circumstance would "shock" the dog out of the fight drive. however, no one wants to take a chance when dealing with a dog fight, so i want to better understand some things.

1. what if the dog(s) responds to the e-collar pain with a more vicious and frantic aggression (either in the heat of the moment or next time they see the other dog)

2. In order to predict the dog would respond appropriately to the e-collar (stop fighting), would the dog(s) have to have previous experience with the concept of e-collars in other areas? Or would you have a leash on each dog to 'guide' them away from the fight and the stimulation, so they can learn what turns the stim off? this is kind of linked to the first question on 'what if the dog correlates the infliction of pain to the other dog, and increases in fight drive?'

3. Is the e-collar a more effective approach than the prevention (muzzles) and thorough obedience training that have been recommended frequently?

4. If you use e-collar high lvl correction for fighting, and this is the only 'training' done with the dogs, is it effective in preventing future fights? if so, this may be more 'do-able' for some owners who can't (or won't) grasp the concepts of management and thorough training. Some people simply do not want to take the leadership role in the home. Would the e-collar correction work for them?

5. sounds like you have to set the dogs up to have a fight, then be prepared to use the e-collar. Am i getting this right? this is different than the commonly recommended muzzle and obedience training approach.

6. Let's say an owner has 2 dogs that fight maybe 1-3 times per year. would you use the e-collar in this situation, and how (it's hard to follow them around with charged e-collars on until the notion to fight strikes). Again, would you 'set up' a situation that would be most likely to induce fighting, so that you could deliver correction?

Thanks in advance for your insight!

You wouldn't want to actually wait until the dogs were engaged in fighting before using the e-collar, Michelle. The e-collar would be used to prevent the aggression that would then escalate to a fight.

I successfully used the e-collar to cure my dog's dog-to-dog aggression. I couldn't even take her out for a walk for fear that we might encounter another dog (on OR off lead) and she'd cause a scene and maybe end up hurting the other dog if it did come close enough to make contact with her (she's a chow/pit cross). Muzzling DID ensure that she couldn't hurt the other dog, but it didn't solve the problem of her aggression towards them, and people automatically assumed she was generally unfriendly (which isn't the case - she loves people) and would steer wide around us and even make comments. Because of her breed, I did not want to continue down that road, and decided it would be best to see if we could teach her that aggressive or dominant behaviors towards other dogs was not acceptible.

I decided to consult a trainer who had experience with dog-to-dog aggression, since I had no experience with aggression at all. We began with the prong collar, but because it took such a forceful correction to have a positive effect, decided to switch to the e-collar. She probably required a level 8 or 9 correction, as Ed would put it, with the prong. Anything less than that would actually make her aggression towards the other dog escalate. Another reason for switching to the e-collar is because most of our work was done at the dog park, outside the off leash area, and we were getting all kinds of dirty looks and nasty comments for having to correct so hard with the prong. We used a Dogtra200NCP. Her normal, daily working level (the level at which she *just* feels the stim) is around 25. The level we had to work her at for dog aggression was 40. When she was aroused by other dogs, somewhere between 35 and 40 was where she could *just* feel the stim, but that didn't do much towards getting her attention, so we bumped it up to 40 to make sure she understood that she was being corrected. Even at this level, she did not panic or vocalize continuously when the button was pressed; but she DID know it didn't feel good and immediately stopped her behavior when she felt it. I zapped myself at this level and it isn't pleasant - it feels like someone pinching the snot out of you! But I wouldn't use a level on my dog that I had not felt first.

Along with the corrections for showing aggressive behaviors, we also conditioned her to the clicker and used it, lots of praise, and treats when she was not being aggressive or dominant. We praised her for looking at or showing interest in the dogs on the other side of the fence, or dogs being walked on leash at a distance, but the second she tensed up and hackled, growled, showed her teeth, barked at, or lunged at them, she got strongly corrected. Immediately after the correction, though, we became happy again. Verbally praising her most of the time, and adding in the click & treat when dogs were right up close to her at the fence. She got rapid fire click & treats for face-to-face greeting of the dogs through the fence, and if there were multiple dogs over there (which there usually was by the end of it because some knew what the clicker meant and were eager to get a treat from us!). We also praised, clicked & treated her when dogs in the fence got into a skirmish, as long as she didn't pay it any attention.

It took about 2 months of going to the park once a week, and working daily with her at home with her basic obedience, and my goal was simply to be able to take her for a walk and not have to worry about encountering other dogs, but now she can even play with other dogs with no incident. The trainer felt confident that she would even be fine inside the fence at the dog park, so for our last session, we allowed her to go in and play with them. She still had the e-collar on, just in case, but she knew what the correction was for and how to respond to it now, instead of thinking it came from the other dog and going for him, so we weren't worried about her attacking another dog if she got a correction. We did have to 'remind' her a time or two when she started posturing towards a big Malamute, but other than that she did great. I don't take her to the park or allow her to play and socialize with strange dogs, but the fact that she CAN without incident makes me feel more confident about taking her out.


The e-collar can be used successfully to help diminish or eliminate dog-to-dog aggression, but your dog needs to know and accept the fact that you're in charge first. Working the dog daily in obedience is one way to establish dominance over your dog, and it also helps to grow the bond between you as well. Obedience should be in place before attempting to remedy dog-to-dog aggression, in my opinion.

The E-collar, in my opinion, should not be used to STOP a dog fight. And if you ONLY use it to prevent a dog fight, you may find it less effective than it should be. When used properly, it's just like any other form of correction, but the dog is never out of arm's reach. The dog needs to understand that the correction is a result of his incorrect/inappropriate behavior. In my opinion, if you only use the collar to correct a single type of misbehavior, the dog doesn't understand as clearly. In the dog's mind, the stimulation would become associated with other dogs instead of his own misbehavior. So... you need to use the collar for more than one type of misbehavior.

Now, as for STOPPING a dog fight, I think an e-collar is just not designed for that situation. If you have two dogs that are actively engaged in a REAL fight, stimulation from an e-collar would most likely agitate the dogs. That is not good enough to stop a fight and in many cases, would likely just make things worse. Instead, you use the e-collar at the first sign of aggression/posturing to let your dog know, that you do not approve of that type of behavior. It's a way to improve the lines of communication in my opinion. But if your dog doesn't respect you as his leader, that communication will not be effective.

Ed's Comments:

Ryan perfectly stated. I could not have put it better.

thank you for clearing that up, makes sense. for some reason i was reading the article to mean 'use the stim during a fight'. i should've known better!

one more question, you do issue a verbal reprimand just before the e-collar stim, right? (specifically in the case of aggression)

Kristen, does your dog still wear the e-collar? Does she have to wear it in order to maintain appropriate behavior?

thanks again ya'll,

 Quote:

one more question, you do issue a verbal reprimand just before the e-collar stim, right?

Yes, before we corrected with either the prong or the e-collar, we gave a verbal reprimand; a very 'growly,' low "NO."

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Kristen, does your dog still wear the e-collar? Does she have to wear it in order to maintain appropriate behavior?

She does if we're taking her out in public where we may encounter another dog, or if we're going someplace where we can let her off lead, just as a precaution, and also because I use the pager feature as her recall so I don't have to holler for her. She doesn't need it in order to maintain appropriate behavior, but if she does show inappropriate behavior, I'm able to correct her for it even if she's off lead. I've corrected her, *MAYbe* four times in the past year for hackling or otherwise posturing at strange dogs (all husky or malamute-looking type dogs; she's never really been too fond of them since she was attacked by three of them as a puppy, though). Other than that, she's been perfect. The main reason she wears the e-collar when we take her out is for my own personal well-being, and so I don't have to have her wear the prong collar; I can just use a flat collar to attach her leash to. Much more inviting for people to pet her with a flat collar than a prong. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

It is easy to think that a dog that is fighting and is gettinga correction with a e-collar,maybe think it gets it from the other dog and/ or gets more stimulated and fights even more.