Lori,

Wanted to answer you sooner but was having trouble signing in for a few days. Anyway, all fixed.
So both dogs are doing well on the THK. I bought Chicken necks to add to food. My one boy is not too crazy about the food but with the chicken necks I think he will be fine.

So we have been off the Atopica for 3 or 4 days.
I'm seeing a little bit of itching but I guess that has to be expected. We are doing 2 baths a week.
One medicated bath a month. It's for allergies and itching. The rest and the time I'm going to use Earthbath. It has tea tree oil and Aloe. Suppose to be very good for allergies and fleas.

The derm vet just said to use the Chlortrimeton as needed.

So I'll just keep my eye on the itching.

Her instructions when we first started the Atopica for the Triam (just in case he needed it ) was (1.5 mg) 1 tablet twice a day for 3 days, then 1 tablet once a day for 3 days then stop.
I like your dose though.
But I'll be seeing the Derm Vet again in Aug just for a check. So I'll go over instructions with her again for the Chlortrimeton and the Triam.

I looked into the Natural sterols. Lots of different ones.
I'm trying olive leaf. Suppose to be good for People, dogs and horses. Suppose to help cut down on any infections.

If you can think of anything else please jump in. The boys and I will be so happy if we can get this under control.

Thanks so much
Geri

PS. I'll also talk to her about the diet. We may let that go for a while. Maybe all the things we are doing now will work and we will not have to worry about doing the elimination diet.

Geri, sounds like everything is going well! If you get to the point where you want to spend less on THK, try chicken backs too - they are the best RMB in my opinion! Lots of bone, but also meat and organs on there (usually). Your dogs are big, right?

As far as the steroid dose, always err on the smaller side. If you start noticing a lot of itching, try just giving him one table every other day for a week and see how that does. You'd be surprised at how just a small amount can cut it enough that they are comfortable - it doesn't have to heal anything at this point, or make the itching stop completely. Also, the reason it's good to give every other day, and even better, every third day, is because at that dosing, the dogs body will be encouraged to make it's own steroid. If you give it every day, their body will eventually depend on the med and stop making much of it's own.

Keep us posted!!

Thanks Lori,

With doing all the other protocals, do you think a bath once a week might be enough? . I've been trying to bathe him once a week and go to the vet once a week. But it is pretty hard on my back doing it at home.

I like your idea for the steriod dosing. Hope I will need it for awhile.

Geri

Well, I don't like to go against what the vet says, so the following is just my own opinion from my own experience! My derma vet says a once a week bath is adequate, so we just add in the foot washing. I would go nuts if I had to bathe my golden more than that (in fact, sometimes we don't get it in every week). But if you're diligent about the feet, and you don't go walking him through a bunch of stuff he's allergic to, then once a week should be ok. Just do what Connie talks about with the hosing off if you do take him through weeds and grass, etc - hose off his legs, feet and undercarriage then wipe him down.

I get the sore back thing!

Lori,

Well I think I'll be trying the hosing off and bath once a week.
And of course the rub downs and walking thru fresh water etc....

Well its been about 4 or 5 days with no Atopica and there is some itching going on especially with the back feet itching his sides.
So I started him on the Chlortrimeton.
Also, something I have forgotten to mention because we had so many other issues going on, but he always has done a lot of rubbing of his face on me and on the furniture. Expecially after eating. I believe I have read that that could be a sign of food allergies. Or does it mean he just likes the feel of it and he's cleaning off his mouth? There is no rash and no bumps. I just hate to think about the elimination diet as he is loving THK and having no stomach issues with it at all. Very good BM's.
Let me know your thoughts.
I sure appreciate the time you have been putting into this. Just want you to know that I'm putting 100 % of my time and effort into my boy Frazier so we can figure this all out. He is such a great dog and deserves the best. Thanks

Geri

 Quote: Geri Gill

... something I have forgotten to mention because we had so many other issues going on, but he always has done a lot of rubbing of his face on me and on the furniture. Expecially after eating. I believe I have read that that could be a sign of food allergies.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1587&aid=503

QUOTE:
Dogs with allergies may show the following symptoms:

Chewing on feet
Rubbing the face on the carpet
Scratching the body
Recurrent ear infections
Hair loss
Mutilated skin



http://www.petsandvetsaspartners.com/Pet_Allergies.pdf
QUOTE:
Dogs with any type of allergies may show the following signs:

Chewing the feet
Rubbing the face on the carpet or furniture
Scratching the body
Recurrent ear infections
Hair loss
Mutilated skin
END QUOTES

Various parasites also trigger this face-rubbing, but the derm vet would have checked for and ruled out skin parasites.

 Quote: Geri Gill

... Well its been about 4 or 5 days with no Atopica and there is some itching going on especially with the back feet itching his sides.
So I started him on the Chlortrimeton.

How much itching? Does it disturb his sleep? Is he breaking skin?

Did you just start the antihistamine today?

Connie,

I read those links you left for me. Pretty much everything we have done and are doing.
He had a bath on Wed and itching bad today. I just started the Chlortrimeton yesterday. He is itching the underside of tail a lot. Then he is itching the rest of the tail and his sides.
No licking of paws yet, but we are washing them off everytime he goes out. I also am wiping him off with a wet cloth 2 and 3 times a day. Very frustrating to see him start to itch like this again.
I know you think I'm nuts because I keep going back to the food.
But a couple of years ago when he was so bad we used (don't shoot me for saying this) Science diet for allergies. I think it was the ZD. Anyway I believe he got better as far as the itching. But he could have had other problems at the time too, I really can't remember.
But what if we did the elmination diet just to see if it made a difference. The trouble is THK does seem to be a great food and they do not have anything he has never had. I was thinking of one of those foods (not sure how to describe it) I think the vet said the molucules are so small that it can't cause allergy problems. (Do you know what I'm thinking of? )

I would like to use a medicated/anti itch shampoo everyweek.But I'm afraid that will wash off the advantix.

So let me know what you think. I guess this is a work in progress. Just hope we make some progress. He was doing so well till yesterday. Thanks

Geri

"I read those links you left for me. Pretty much everything we have done and are doing. "


I quoted those links because you asked about face-rubbing being connected to food and I was showing you that face-rubbing is a very common symptom in all kinds of allergies.

You said "... a lot of rubbing of his face on me and on the furniture. Expecially after eating. I believe I have read that that could be a sign of food allergies."
and I replied "QUOTE: Dogs with any type of allergies may show the following signs: Rubbing the face on the carpet or furniture "


"I would like to use a medicated/anti itch shampoo everyweek.But I'm afraid that will wash off the advantix. "

How soon does it say on the package that you can bathe him?


" I was thinking of one of those foods (not sure how to describe it) I think the vet said the molucules are so small that it can't cause allergy problems. (Do you know what I'm thinking of? )"

Remember these are not the same as novel elimination diets. If you want to do it, you should probably do it. It won't kill him, as crappy as the food is. (You mean the hydrolyzed protein diet, right?)



Also:

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Geri Gill

... Well its been about 4 or 5 days with no Atopica and there is some itching going on especially with the back feet itching his sides.
So I started him on the Chlortrimeton.

How much itching? Does it disturb his sleep? Is he breaking skin?

Did you just start the antihistamine today?

Lori might check in too; I'm slammed with work today until late afternoon.

I want to preface these remarks with this - I am certainly NOT telling you not to do an elimination diet. I ended up doing one (it was miserable!), before we took Kasey to the derma for the first time. I, like you, kept thinking that it was connected to food, but it is not.

Kasey rubs his face on the carpet EVERY SINGLE TIME he finishes eating. It has become a joke in our house to tell him "stop doing that! our carpet is NOT a napkin"! He also bites the underside of his tail a lot. I found this spray and use it a lot on places that he bites like his tail http://www.amazon.com/Veterinarians-Best-Spot-Relief-Spray/dp/B0002AQM9G.

It's not just for hot spots, it is tea tree oil and aloe, and it really helps with the itching AND they don't like the smell of the tea tree oil so they tend to leave it on. It helps heal really well.

I did the kibble you are talking about (it costs a fortune!), I believe we did kangaroo because I was absolutely sure he had not every had it before. If you do it, just make sure you keep a really meticulous journal - I mean write down his itching on a scale of 1 to 10 and where, every single day at least once. Because if you don't, you won't know if it's a fluke or not. And you have to keep it up for several months to really be sure. Has your vet explained to you that usually when a dog has food allergies, they don't just have itching? Most of the time, if it's a true allergy, they also have gastrointestinal symptoms as well - gas, loose stools, sometimes vomiting, etc. Kasey only had those symptoms on kibble.

So if it's going to bring you peace of mind to try it, then do it. It won't hurt the dog for a short period of time. But if you are going to use kibble, then you must use one of the vet kibbles that is made for that - the ones with only 2 ingredients. The pet store foods have other things in them usually. We did the kibble, and we also did a home cooked one with just hamburger and potatoes - also a big pain! Neither of them made a difference. Some days it seemed he was better, then wham, the itching would start again. I finally gave it up, and just feed raw. He has good days where he doesn't itch very much (so I know it's not food), and other days where he does. No rhyme or reason most of the time because he's allergic to so many things.

P.S. One other thing, you may have to use the steroid off and on, on the every third day basis while you are waiting for the allergy shots to kick in. We did. It can take months for that serum to start helping, and you don't want to avoid the steroid to the detriment of the dog. I try to keep a record of his itching on that scale of 1 to 10. If he gets past a 5 or so, I will give a low dose every third day for 2 or 3 times and it brings him back down to a 2. I'll wait and watch and see how he does for a few days after that, and if he's below a 5, I'll stop them, if not, I'll give it a few more times. Many times it only takes a few doses over the course of a week or so to get him settled down again. At that dosing and frequency we don't really even see any side effects.