"Al, if your WL pup is good in the house, GREAT! could he be an exception to the typical? could you have raised him in a not-so common way that yielded that result? could your wealth of training experience have enabled you to accomplish this whereas a less experienced person to dogs might NOT have?"

I don't know where most WL owners have their dogs live. I was advised by a WL owner where to look for a pup from a good breeder. The person who advised me has two WL GSDs that live in her house. I bought a pup from a WL breeder. Hans is 2 1/2 years old now. We don't do Shutzhund with him, he is a companion. Several months ago we decided he was trustworthy enough that we didn't need to crate him when we left him alone. He is not crated at night or when we are out anymore. No problems. We don't leave food out where he can reach it, that is common sense. But he doesn't make messes, isn't destructive, there are no problems. He'd be ideal if we could figure out how to train him not to shed

I know my experience is limited, but if my friend can have two WL GSDs living in her house with no problems, and I can have one living in our house with no problems, maybe your impression that WLs can't be trained to live in the house by the average dog owners is wrong. (And as a dog owner and a trainer I am still aspiring to be average.)

Oh, and he has loads of drive. I have learned that "high drive" is a relative term, but he'll chase a ball until I am tired.

My WL GSD (in training for Schutzhund) is great in the house, and very well mannered around my 4 year old son.

I don't think she was raised "different", just correctly. And no, I don't think correct is a relative term.

She understands that the house is for being calm, relaxed and affectionate. She equally understands that the yard is for running Indy 500 laps in, leaping 6 feet in the air to give me kisses on the forehead, chasing leaves, and just generally expressing the joy of being a GSD.

She has her stupid puppy moments, being young, but Danke has learned "controlled psychosis" in the house.
She will tear up and down the hallway, and come to a skidding stop on her dog bed. Without knocking anything over or making any noise.
She equally chases flies in the house, again without being destrucive.

BUTIf I tell her to knock it off, she does.
Once she's shown me "calm" for a few minutes, I let her outside to finish running off all that kinetic energy.

I've had showline dogs (not GSDs though) that were a million times harder to live with, because they did not have the intense drive for praise or prey items that allowed me to teach them good manners. If I told them to knock it off, they didn't care, because nothing I could offer was more important to them than the self-reward of being a spaz.

Drive does not make a dog unbearable in the house, provided you impliment respect and balance early on with the dog, and you learn how to manipulate drive to your advantage in training.
That drive, IMO, can make a dog a more pleasant home companion, because they train and learn manners faster.

Sorry for posting this again, but, it took to long to edit.

Norman from your response to me:
And again please understand that I am a devoted lover of the WL GSD and do not much care for the SL GSD.
Please read below

{{{Steve wrote in part:
My only answer to that (and I am not her) is that she is a SL breeder, but, places high value in the working dog's ability and sees that there is a problem in the working ability of SL dogs

Well so do we all but how she chooses to solve that problem baffles me as the answer to that problem is already there, and it is breed only working line GSD’s. I mean no disrespect but what exactly do show line dogs bring to the breeding equation. Working temperament and character? No. Working conformation? No. A useable work ethic? No. ***( I have to disagree with you here. An SL dog that is out of one of the most famous von Arlett dogs was a highly valued SAR dog in Switzerland, also Sch3-287. He was brought here to the states to be used as a stud dog. He is VA now. In total this dog has been shown no more than 4 or 5 times in Europe and U.S. combined. Actually only once in U.S. He is an SL that has all of the above characteristics you speak of.)*** So given that why would someone who wants to improve the breed choose blood lines, that are replete with the traits and behaviors that working breeders are aggressively breeding away from. Maybe a particular show line dog is OK but what about the many behind that particular dog, don’t they count?

Steve wrote in part:
How many of the WL GSD owners on here bought their dog because of the way it looks?

Too many ***(Yes way too many that probably shouldn't own a WL GSD because they, as I pointed out earlier, are watering down the WL GSD, as well!)**** but people shouldn’t buy working dogs like they buy art. That is look in a book and pick one that looks a certain way or believes because of the BS written about them they will act a certain way. I would think that far more pick show line dogs because of looks because that is why they are valued. ***(Your logic is slightly flawed here. The general public, on the whole, does not know that WL dogs exist and would not even know to look for one. Most of the general public only knows that Black and Tan dogs exist.)****

Steve wrote in part:
Of all the dogs produced how many are actually, truly, a "working dog"? I do not mean dogs competing in sports

If your speaking about GSD’s I would think you might be a bit low, IMO about three per-cent of the total of American and German but that percentage is misleading as I don’t consider the American style GSD a GSD. ***(Sorry I disagree with you about the percentage. I think that my numbers are much closer even if you remove the American GSD from the equation.)*** That said the actual GSD today is by far the most used service dog in the world ***(when did this happen? LOL)*** and that includes but not

The other thing that I would like to point out here is, look around this forum. This forum is full of what I call tough guy (and gal) working line GSD people. We just had the WUSV here in this country. How many posts are you reading about it on here? Someone actually posted how surprised they were that there were no posts! It kind of goes back to what I asked before. Do any of you actually train your dogs and compete with them or perform some sort of work with them? There are a ton of people, and growing by the minute, that own WL GSD's and do nothing with them. Isn't this as big a tragedy, or worse, than what is and has happened with the SL GSD???

To: Susan,
You made the statement that you are glad that the SV has done so much to preserve the breed. You couldn't be more incorrect. They are probably the biggest reason that we have the divide in lines today. They are responsible for dumbing down Schutzhund requirements. The SV, like the GSDCA, is run by showline breeders, handlers, and judges. If you think that the SV cares about the working ability of GSD's please look in to anything that Helmut Raiser has written about this and please consider joining SV-2000.

 Quote: randy allen

'It is a fact as of now that both sides need each other to progress'. end quote.

Excuse me!
Since when does the working lines need the high lines?
This whole discusion has been about how little or nothing the high lines bring to the table.
Why water down a good worker?

Sorry James, read the thread.
Randy

Well said Randy. Unfortunately, the SL dogs are not Courageous, Intelligent or Noble. There are exceptions, it's just not the rule. There are Black & Tan WL dogs, there are also Black, Sable, Bi-Color, etc. There are really only Black & Tan Sl Dogs, this is a big part of the problem too.

Look at the Showline BSZS Results

Compared to the Worlingline BSP Results

Look at the photos of the dogs. All of the BSZS dogs are B&T, at least there is some genetic variability in the Workingline dogs.

It seems to me that we have 2 separate discussions going here.

We have a discussion on whether or not a showline dog can work.

We also have a discussion on whether or not showlines should be bred or have value in breeding.

These 2 things do not interchange. There are showlines that can work. I know of 2 showlines that are police dogs in the US (although the one I saw work wasn't particularly impressive to watch, had typical showline issues in his control work and behavior, he does have an impressive street bite record). I am also told that many UK police dogs are showlines. Not sure if that's saying much given the UK's regulations on training police dogs... but, they are police dogs none the less.

Whether the dog can work does not change the fact that they are not sound structurally, and that the dog is not necessarily a good worker because of solid genetics, but more likely a fluke with good training. The roached back and showline structure is still there. So from a breeding perspective, whether the dog can work or not is now a moot point since the dog doesn't have a structure that should be considered for breeding. This goes back to what I said earlier: if there was no divide in the lines, why not breed the dog over there that can work AND has good structure?

The only valid reason I can think of to breed showlines with more working ability is to preserve the showline lineage. All I can say is: Why? I suppose it's better than ruining working lines even further, but in an ideal world there would only be working line dogs. It's not an ideal world, and nothing said in this thread will ever change the way dogs are being bred today. But it's still a mildly interesting topic to ponder.

Since showlines are always going to be around, more and more so, I admit I am glad that working ability is being considered by some "niche breeders," but that doesn't change what they are.

Mike,
Great post! Again I am in agreement with you on principle. My question is do you believe, as I do, that all breeding is "niche" breeding? I am not saying it "should" be, but, I think that it is.

The other question I would like to ask those who see breeding for conformation as terrible (I put myself in this category). You seem to want to keep harping on Capt. Max's statement about keeping his "a working breed". If this was truly so why did he start holding conformation shows? It seems that he is as much to blame for this as any. He could have implemented a "no show" policy for the Schaferhund.

My answer to this is that there is value in breeding for conformation. That value is called "money". It is the same reason that WL breeders breed. I have yet to meet one person that only breeds for the love of any breed, or to improve the lines. I know that breeders like to think this is why they got involved in breeding, but, if it were truly so, you shouldn't need to be paid for what you produce. I'm not saying that you don't work hard, I know there are expenses, and I know that all of you have given away a puppy or a dog at some time, but, YOU ARE IN IT FOR THE MONEY!!!

Edited by SteveZorn (10/24/2008 03:14 PM)
Edit reason: punctuation

"Look at the photos of the dogs. All of the BSZS dogs are B&T, at least there is some genetic variability in the Workingline dogs."
_________________________
John Haudenshield

Hey John,
Again on your side, but "genetic variability"???
Aren't the working line breeders the worst of the worst when it comes to line breeding? That doesn't really lend itself to genetic variability.

 Quote: stevezorn

Mike,
Great post! Again I am in agreement with you on principle. My question is do you believe, as I do, that all breeding is "niche" breeding? I am not saying it "should" be, but, I think that it is.

The other question I would like to ask those who see breeding for conformation as terrible (I put myself in this category). You seem to want to keep harping on Capt. Max's statement about keeping his "a working breed". If this was truly so why did he start holding conformation shows? It seems that he is as much to blame for this as any. He could have implemented a "no show" policy for the Schaferhund.

My answer to this is that there is value in breeding for conformation. That value is called "money". It is the same reason that WL breeders breed. I have yet to meet one person that only breeds for the love of any breed, or to improve the lines. I know that breeders like to think this is why they got involved in breeding, but, if it were truly so, you shouldn't need to be paid for what you produce. I'm not saying that you don't work hard, I know there are expenses, and I know that all of you have given away a puppy or a dog at some time, but, YOU ARE IN IT FOR THE MONEY!!!

Some breeders (like me,except I'm not a breeder!) feel disgusted by the majority of GSD's being bred out there.
Some good workingline breeders,( I know of a few ) trained their own dogs, (darn good looking dogs too), structurally and physically, put titles on them, so they bred them, and why not? I don't think a breeder who breeds one to two litters a year is in it for the money. Breeding can be darn expensive, and risky. I think there are also those that love the German Shepherd, love training, and decided why not try and make a living off of something you love, and something you are doing a great job at. I have no problem with thoses breeders actually I'm very thankful for them!

Then on the other hand, there are those that don't really care if the feet go east and west, if the back is roached, or if the back end is pretty much touching the ground. Those breeders I will never support, as they obviously are not trying to improve the breed, so they must be in it for the money!

Steve, with apologizes to Jennifer (g), because of the infrequency of a show bred dog actually performing at a level that would be of benefit to a working handler or impress a working handler they must be considered a throwback. They do nothing to dismiss the fact that working abilities in dog populations diminish if not tested and selected for, and that what is selected for in the conformation show ring isn't working abilities. Such throwbacks can and do occur in every population, but this begs the question, should they be bred and IMO they should not because of the show lines populating their pedigrees. Should they be bred or should they be owned is not mutually exclusive. This is the same problem found today in rare breeds, which I have owned and trained. The F-1 results (a first breeding between two dogs) from the breeding for most working rare breeds, assuming you can find two in close proximity, will usually not duplicate that the same soundness,intensity and work ethic of their parents, mainly because of those show line dogs (untested) populating their pedigrees. It being understood most rare breeds today are in fact show dogs in that they are bred for a certain look i.e., large, heavy and wide, big boned, large heads and if possible a menacing look. Because of selecting breed stock for those traits alone, their nerves, for the most part, are sub-standard much like the show line GSD’s dogs and for the same reasons, breeding for a certain look instead of necessary behaviors that can be controlled. The want to work is not a single trait but a combination of many, some easily seen most not and unless you work and or train that dog you can only *assume* how your dog will perform under stress which is what must be seen in order to accurately evaluate what's at the end of your leash. Moreover so few show dog owners know much about the work their breed was created to do, they cannot accurately assess it. I am the President of a canine detection service http://www.canineintercept.com and in eight years we have never had a show line dog that was good enough for us to use. Moreover in my 30 plus years in schutzhund I have seldom seen a show line dog able to withstand the rigors of training necessary in the sport and or perform at a high level. The ones I have seen seem to just be going through the motions. I am not saying good ones don’t exist but why then do so few, other than mainly show line breeders, want to use them. Maybe some of their reasons have been stated above. It's hard enough to get a useful dog from a working breeding without watering down what you need to create it.

Janet,
You wrote:
{ I don't think a breeder who breeds one to two litters a year is in it for the money. Breeding can be darn expensive, and risky.}

Well golly gee, so is driving to work in the morning.

I already covered this, but, if they aren't in it for the money then they should be happy to place those pups they bred in to good homes without charging for them. I will give you this. Let them re-coup expenses. I co-founded a rescue and we try (LOL, ROFLMAO) to recoup expenses. Generally I get back about 10% of what I put in to it financially. Why shouldn't any of these so called "good workingline breeders" be happy with that also???

"They love what they do, they are good at it." Are you f-ing kidding???

Actually, now that I think about it they should get as much money for their pups as possible. That way they can reimburse me for my expenses when I pick up where they left off and rescue the dogs that they shouldn't have sold to the moron that couldn't handle them, or suddenly got allergies, or had to move.

Get real, it's about money and it is a relatively easy way to make money. That's why so many stupid, f...ing idiots make a living doing it.