QUOTE: I never wrote the words: "I know for a fact that this is true."


I believe that I actually copied and pasted, adding nothing but quotation marks. However, the text has now been revised, so I guess there can be no discussion on that point.

And I am the first to admit that I could be mistaken in my recollection of copying and pasting. I don't think so, but I'm old. BTW, it may have been a quote in the article, rather than your words.

That minor point aside, I'm pleased that you joined up and probably opened an interesting topic.

As for myself, I will put all semantics aside and say that I believe I have to be in charge of my home-group: only me, and at all times. There. No pack word, no pack leader words.

I must make all the decisions; I must protect them all; I must train them and guide them to behave in ways that don't endanger others and therefore don't put any of my group at risk.

So "According to David Mech, the world’s leading experts on the behavior of wild wolves, real wolf packs don’t have pack leaders" may be interesting to me, but I don't have a "real wolf pack" here, or even a group of dogs on the hunt for their food. Neither does Cesar Millan, in fact.

 Quote: connie sutherland

"And thus he says that all our training methods based on pack structure and being a pack leader are bunk."

What if you were somehow convinced that wild canids did not have packs and pack structure and pack leaders?

Would you then think that being our domesticated dogs' leaders was wrong or unwise or unnecessary? Or would you think that the way we live with our dogs makes it necessary that we, the humans, function as the leaders?

But I know that you will get an interesting discussion from your post!

(I do wish that you have not revised before posting here, for obvious reasons.)

And welcome to the board! You might like to post to the Bio section when you have a chance.

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/postlist/Board/146/page/1

 Quote: doug alcorn

All I'm saying is the original article was calling out CM for misunderstanding dogs; for acting like a predator instead of the (as they say) fictitious pack leader. The ironic part to me is the quotes you gave from K. Behan sound very much like CM in his book Be The Pack Leader. I'm not trying to say Behan plagiarized CM. I'm not trying to say CM is the Bee's Knees or not. I just find it ironic that LCK is setting CM up as the bad guy when his mentor, K. Behan, sounds a lot like CM in his touchy-feely, emotional, energy talk.

Hopefully I can clear that up.

First of all, Kevin Behan has been training dogs for nearly 50 years. His father was a famous trainer for the K-9 Corps during WW II. Kevin felt his father's techniques were too rough on dogs so he began looking for a different way of doing things. This goes back to the 1970s when Cesar Millan was still a kid in Mazatlan.

Kevin's website was first put on the web sometime in the late 1990s or early 2000s, long before Millan became well-known. So if there's any plagiarism going on, it doesn't come from Kevin.

So that's the timeline.

As for Cesar's ideas about "energy" -- which are, in my view, vague and as you said "touchy-feely" -- they're quite different from Kevin's -- which are based on actual properties of physics.

On my website I discuss this issue (slightly edited here):

"Everything in nature has to act in accordance with the laws of energy. When energy builds inside any natural system it has to flow somewhere. When tectonic plates, for example, are under too much pressure, there’s an earthquake. When a lark is filled with sexual energy, he sings his mating call. When bio-electrical energy builds inside a cell, it divides in two. All things in nature exhibit tension and release.

"It’s also the key to dog training. Of course, unlike cells and tectonic plates, dogs have the capacity to learn complex new behaviors. But the principle still applies. When a dog is energized he’ll jump up on you when you come home, or bring you a toy when he wants to play, or bark if he hears strange noises, etc. But on the most basic level all canine behavior is still about one thing—releasing energy."

...

"By definition a stimulus is anything that increases the energy in an animal’s system. Dogs experience this influx of energy as a physical sensation of tension or pressure. If a dog has no immediate means of releasing that feeling the unresolved energy is stored as stress. On the other hand, if a dog’s response to the stimulus immediately reduces his tension or stress, he feels better, and that behavior becomes learned. So training isn’t about external punishments or rewards, per se. The real reinforcement is the pleasurable changes that take place in the dog’s internal energy state, whether it comes through receiving a food reward, getting to chase a tennis ball, or through anything else that feels innately satisfying."

...

Also, one of the primary tenets of Natural Dog Training is that dogs feel the world primarily through the energetic poles of attraction and resistance (on the most basic level they're attracted to preylike energy and feel resistance to predatorlike energy; there's more to it, but that's the nutshell version.) I could be wrong but I don't think Cesar Millan would have even the slightest idea of what that means.

Finally, I've seen some evidence in Millan that he's potentially capable of moving past his current paradigm, which is more than I can say for some of his loudest detractors (Nicholas Dodman, et al). So my purpose in the article was not to bash Cesar, per se, but to point out what I think is a major flaw in his view of "dog psychology." That said, he's got a long way to go before he gets close to Kevin Behan's work.

LCK

For a really interesting look at the difference between what Kevin and I do and what Cesar does, take a look at my article http://blogs.psychologytoday.com/blog/my-puppy-my-self/200904/in-praise-aggression "In Praise of Aggression." That'll start a real debate!

I'm not so sure that would start a debate Lee. Watch any helper stay calm and avert his eyes in a hold and bark.

Lee, welcome to the forum! I appreciate your "energy" in advocating a higher level of dog ownership/training/whatever you want to call it. I also appreciate your willingness to enter in honest discussion without being either offensive or defensive.

Your comments on energy versus what CM talks about energy certainly clarify your position. I think it's a bit disingenuous to say what you're describing is a "property of physics". That seams to imply you could rig up a meter and measure the dog's energy (either positive or negative). Now that would be a great training aid! Put the thing on the dog's collar with some color/visual feedback so you'd know when you were on the right/wrong track. I don't think you're saying such a thing is/could be possible.

If I understand what you're saying, is that all dogs want to be in the neutral energy state. Their energy builds up (for some reason) and they need to release this energy to go back to neutral. The energy buildup is a property of external stimuli or I guess also internal?

Anyway, I do find your writings interesting. Thank you for all the references. It gives me something to read and research.

Lee, how many dogs have you titled?

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

Lee, how many dogs have you titled?

I was just going to ask how many trained.

anytime I hear somebody use the word " paradigm" I usually excuse myself.....

I can see your point Mr K... wound up dog needs to unwind, and it may be necessary to re investigate pack structure and dynamics. Its axiomatic ( I can dig up a 25cent on occasion ) that dogs when left to their own devices will pack and establish rank.

Engery,
Ugh, I wish I had more of it for this discussion.
LCK, because YOU had be convinced by some 'experts' does not make YOU any kind of expert. You can drop all the names you like around here you like, the more knowledgeable people here will tell you it's ALL very old news. No matter what kind of new wave mumbo jumbo you want to cloak it in, it's very old news.
Wolf packs, or the canine pack structure is more nuanced then was figured in 50's and 60's, big revelation. Some of us who lived and trained dogs in the 70's remember those theories and even tried them for a short while, and when I say short for my part I mean short lived. In the end though, my golly, as you admited there must be a teacher or naturally charismatic ONE that all others just follow. Hmmmmm, what could that mean I wonder?

That you stake so much on this business on a wolf that cornering something 4 or 5 times it's size and weight and doesn't go in for the kill absolutely amazes me. Here, I'll explain it in simple terms for you: the animal is holding the soon to be food for the rest of the pack, otherwise there will be no food today and our best hunter will not be able to hunt tomorrow. That make sense in the big scope of 'pack' Mr. Kelly?
Now I don't know how many working dogs you've met and decided they were just really scared because you stood taller then them but I hope for your sake not many. The dogs we here at Leerburg keep are mostly from the herding guardian group, they are bred to stand stalwart against the odds, it's in their hard wiring, and we accent that with training and support. I dare you try to buffalo one of these dogs. So I'm not going to do any more entertaining your clap trap about taller than thou.

I'm with Steve, big discovery.........play with, and enjoy life with your dog. Yohoo

Ya know what I think? I think it's people like you Mr. Kelly that keeps this very old concept of pack mentality alive more than anyone else, and also I think you do it consciencely, just for your own pocketbook.

Randy

I just figured something out. Marlin always sent Jim because he was taller so his vertical axis of symmetry would cause anxiety in predators and make good TV. Marlin was a little guy, it wasnt because he was old, so his horizontal plane was only going to elicit yawns from even the hungriest wolves. Mutual of Omaha was paying to see Jim get bit, not wolves sleeping in Marlins lap.

Thanks LCK. Hope you join in on some dog training discussions.