Thanks Tracy! I happen to have a few of the mustard/ketchup picnic bottles which have never been used and which are now destined to be "sulphur dip" bottles. Thank goodness today is supposed to be in the 80's.

Just got off the phone with the vet. I found out she is actually in Florida dealing with a sick mother, so I felt guilty of even bothering her, although the secretary assured me it was okay to call. None the less, it did effect the amount of time I was comfortable speaking with her.

What I got from our conversation:

* She said not all dogs have the chronic ear or yeast infections normally associated with food allergies.

* When I asked about the issue of our dogs only having 1 or 2 bowel movements a day vs the numerous bm's normally associated with food allergic dogs, she said that at times this is not even noticed until dogs are put on a prescription food due to the amount of fiber in that food compared to their normal diet. I reminded her that our dogs have been on a raw diet for two years, but this did not elicit a change in her thought process...

* She said that yes, the food trial was normally the "next step" in determining what might be going on, especially when the itching has covered several seasons - in our case, fall, winter and spring without any significant change in the dog's behavior.

* She also said something about a food trial being able to present a false positive; it could appear we've found the problem but in fact it was due to something environmental. At least I THINK that is what she meant to say; I could have misunderstood this part.

* She was open to trying the ivermectin and said I should order a test kit for Falcon as well as Sadie (the test kit would determine through the DNA whether there is any herding dog in the dog's lineage). Supposedly GSDs have been "recategorized" as herding dogs vs working dogs. I hesitated at this and stressed it wasn't due to the additional 70 bucks but rather have they had issues with GSDs and Ivermectin or was she just being cautious because they've been recategoriezed? She said recategorized. Geesh... It is "only" 70 bucks but it IS 70 bucks. IF it is NEEDED I'll pay it, but if we are just moving a dog from one category to the next - is it NECESSARY??

What I failed to ask, due to my feeling guilty of bothering her during this time is whether or not the environment SHOULD have been treated. She had already downplayed this at our first meeting, but as we do the ivermectin, I'm probably going to cover those bases to be on the safe side.

The other item I wanted to ask but did not: is the fact that Falcon has been on prednisone and the amitriptyline for the past month with no relief indicative of anything in regard to what we might be dealing with?

I admit to being more frustrated at the moment than I had hoped to be today. Not only did my conversation with the vet not go as well as planned, but bathing and dipping both dogs with a broken finger proved to be rather painful, inspite of the splint and tape. I have no idea whether the dip is being effective or not; it is simply IMPOSSIBLE to get all the way down to the skin on a 100# GSD who does not want to be dipped in the first place. He is still itching. Okay, I'm done venting. Thanks for putting up with me.

I know how frustrating it can be, I feel for you Barbara.

Is this vet a dermvet? I know you said "allergist" so maybe the same thing.

One thing I distinctly remember when dealing with Kaia's allergies, was the vet said if it was atopy, the dog would respond when on Prednisone. Meaning prednisone would stop her itching. Which it did.
However, typically, if it is a parasite, then you would continue to still see the itching.
From what you have said, I still believe you could have a resistant case of mites.

Maybe it is just her preference to want to do the elimination diet next, but I would want to treat with the Ivermectin first to rule out the possibility of mites and see how Falcon was after that treatment was finished before I would want to start the elimination diet, just for the sake of what if all the itching subsides after this treatment?

Also, I gave my GSD Ivermectin with no troubles whatsoever.
I guess I would want to run the test on Sadie, but not sure if it is needed for Falcon. If it worries you, then run the test for him. I just felt that if the vet said it was safe, I would trust in him, he didn't blink an eye when I asked to be sure.

Geez, you had a broken finger when you were giving all those dips? That couldn't have been easy.

So, what is your general feeling, get the tests back and give the ivermectin?

A few things jump out at me. One was:


* She also said something about a food trial being able to present a false positive; it could appear we've found the problem but in fact it was due to something environmental.


I'm unclear. This was present, right? Not prevent?

A food trial cannot present a false positive in part 1 (the elimination diet). That is, part 1 (the elimination diet) is meant to demonstrate via eliminating ("elimination diet") all possible allergens from the dog's diet* that the dog's symptoms are relieved by removing possible offending foods from his diets.

So the foods he can be allergic to are removed from the diet. The dog either does or does not experience symptom relief. If he does, then food has shown itself to be a culprit. If he does not, then food is pretty much ruled out.

That's simplified, yes, but basically that's part 1 of a food trial. How can that present a false positive?

This isn't a sarcastic argument. I'm missing something, or she said/meant something else, or something like that.

If "it appears we've found the problem but in fact it was due to something environmental," what made us appear to have found the problem? Cessation (or huge reduction) of symptoms?





*There are small bad-luck possibilities of having accidentally chosen a food the dog HAD eaten enough of to develop an allergy, and the owner not knowing that part of the dog's history, but this is quite slim because the owner would at least know it was not in the dog's recent diet, and the recent diet, obviously, has been containing the -- or one of the -- allergens. Almost not worth going down that path, because the language here doesn't appear to have anything to do with that unlikely eventuality.

Joyce, yes, my plan right now is to get the test kit on Sadie, send in the sample, and based on the results treat both Sadie and Falcon with the Ivermectin. And yes, this gal is a dermvet.

Connie, I could easily have misunderstood what the vet said; she probably did say "prevent" and not "present". I admit to having a very basic understanding of all this information... atophy vs food allergies vs mites so as she is speaking, my mind is racing trying to make sense of it all and scratch notes. I know this is part of my being so frustrated at the moment - trying to get a grip on the different symptoms for the possible situations and the correct way to proceed, etc..

It is confusing to read the symptoms such as ear infections and numerous bowel movements are an indication of food allergies, yet then have the dermvet say "not so much"... Just adds to my sense of where in the heck to go with all this.

However, I'm going is to give the Ivermectin a try assuming Sadie's dna test indicates she is safe to go. And treat the environment so that I can rule that out as a variable.

I DID ask if she had ever had a dog that did not develope the sterotypic "mange" bare spots and she said she had two dogs which went to the same dog park, which presented a situation similar to ours - resistant mites that responded to the Ivermectin.

'It is confusing to read the symptoms such as ear infections and numerous bowel movements are an indication of food allergies, yet then have the dermvet say "not so much"... '


Numerous BMs .... "not so much" would be what I would say, too from all that I've read and actually observed. I've never observed it, in fact, with the allergic dogs I've had, and if I mentioned it here, I hope I didn't put confusing emphasis on it.

Ear infections ... are not in the "not so much" category; ear infections are very common with food allergies. Sometimes, it's the whole trigger for the vet visit. Still, it's just one symptom among several, and not all dogs have the same history or even the "classic" symptoms (any more than humans).

This is nothing but emphasis, and also nothing but my opinion. Remember that you're talking to an expert on the phone; the advantage to be had here is just more time and opportunity to thrash out ideas and experiences.

* She said not all dogs have the chronic ear or yeast infections normally associated with food allergies.

It's part of the usual array of symptoms in food-allergic dogs, along with certain body geography of the itching, often a lack of good response from steroids, the age of the dog, etc.

* When I asked about the issue of our dogs only having 1 or 2 bowel movements a day vs the numerous bm's normally associated with food allergic dogs, she said that at times this is not even noticed until dogs are put on a prescription food due to the amount of fiber in that food compared to their normal diet. I reminded her that our dogs have been on a raw diet for two years, but this did not elicit a change in her thought process...

I hope you didn't get that from me. If I mentioned more BMs, I didn't mean (or say, I hope) that more frequent BMs was a particularly reliable symptom. It's not. Also, the increased number can be pretty subtle. It can be a clue, though, when added in with more reliable ones, like treating for mites being unsuccessful, lack of seasonality of the symptoms, often poor results from Pred, a skin biopsy that showed changes indicative of allergies, and the body geography of the itching.

* She said that yes, the food trial was normally the "next step" in determining what might be going on, especially when the itching has covered several seasons - in our case, fall, winter and spring without any significant change in the dog's behavior.

This lack of seasonality, then, and the poor response to Pred are probably her indicators pointing to food.

* She also said something about a food trial being able to present a false positive; it could appear we've found the problem but in fact it was due to something environmental. At least I THINK that is what she meant to say; I could have misunderstood this part.

I don't get this.

* She was open to trying the ivermectin and said I should order a test kit for Falcon as well as Sadie (the test kit would determine through the DNA whether there is any herding dog in the dog's lineage). Supposedly GSDs have been "recategorized" as herding dogs vs working dogs. I hesitated at this and stressed it wasn't due to the additional 70 bucks but rather have they had issues with GSDs and Ivermectin or was she just being cautious because they've been recategoriezed? She said recategorized. Geesh... It is "only" 70 bucks but it IS 70 bucks. IF it is NEEDED I'll pay it, but if we are just moving a dog from one category to the next - is it NECESSARY??

I thought it was white GSDs recently identified as a group that should be pre-tested .... ? I know I missed a couple of pages here; sorry. Hasn't he been on Heartgard?

What I failed to ask, due to my feeling guilty of bothering her during this time is whether or not the environment SHOULD have been treated. She had already downplayed this at our first meeting, but as we do the ivermectin, I'm probably going to cover those bases to be on the safe side.

I would! I'd consider making a paper list and also asking her for a time preference for the phone discussion so you don't feel as rushed.

The other item I wanted to ask but did not: is the fact that Falcon has been on prednisone and the amitriptyline for the past month with no relief indicative of anything in regard to what we might be dealing with?

Yes, maybe. It's part of the group of symptoms lumped together above. I'm sorry I missed this; I don't remember ever seeing that he was on Pred with poor response.

(Odd, because I'm in the middle of a many-weeks-long PM thread which has as one of its factors pronounced relief from Pred as a "maybe" indicator away from food as the suspect allergen. All I can say is, I'm old. )

But reaction to Pred is individual too, like presenting symptoms.

Did you already tell us the body geography of the itching? I started to go back, but we have 11 pages now.

Can you link me to that page?

Thank you Connie, for your (as always) thoughtful feedback.

No, you did not insinuate about the numerous bm's; your question caused me to do more reading on-line and I found it referenced somewhere which emphasised it in my pea-brain.

She did mention the white german shepherd but then still suggested I do Falcon as well. However, prior to beginning the sulphur dips, she was perfectly comfortable (still mentioned the white shepherd) treating Falcon with the ivermectin but not Sadie. And yes, both dogs are on Heartguard.

I did have my laptop open to my list of thoughts and questions, and did ask if the timing was okay, but the ol' 'cathlic guilt ran amok anyway and I let myself feel rushed. Geesh.

Someone sent me a PM saying their vet suggested that a lack of relief from the Pred could also be an indication they WERE dealing with mites/parasites and not an inhalant allergy situation, and as you said, it appears so much of this is a crap-shoot since so many of the symptoms and responses are dog-specific.

Another LB member sent me a link to Alergi-clear sold on this site and said they had good results with the product. I'm considering adding that and being more religious about the yogurt in hopes that this may at least help alleviate some of the itchiness.

Thank you again all!

Gotta go, but one point:

Lack of relief from Pred would generally point away from atopy more than toward something else, IMO.

JMO, and again, it's an individual-dog thing, but good response to Pred often points toward atopy.

From that, many extrapolate that lack of Pred benefits might point toward food or mites (and it may!).

The herbal remedy mentioned, as good as it is, and probiotics, as good as they are, are not going to provide much symptom relief unless this is atopy. JMO.

However, I would order the http://leerburg.com/73.htm and I would be religious about top-quality probiotics anyway, because if there is allergy here, then inhalant/environmental are more likely than not to represent at least part of the allergens. And probiotics for a dog = good practice, IMO, and (again) if there's allergy at all, then atopy probably has a part.

Also:

Is his sleep interrupted by itching?

and

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Did you already tell us the body geography of the itching? I started to go back, but we have 11 pages now.

Can you link me to that page?