The extra crate time made Mondo subdued this morning, and I felt bad about it, but this evening he was back to normal, and seemed extra-happy during early evening training/fetch up and down the stairs. He was anxious to play, and even played tug of war with the leather tug, which he usually doesn't like for some reason. I had to admire it a little bit first, say how much I liked it, then he wanted it.

Walk time. Weird weather, above freezing today. Mondo was so cute the first time he stepped on the barely-frozen lake; he was like, what happened to the water! and he kept stepping back on breaking it. Then when it really froze, he ran in circles on it, "look at me, I'm running on a lake!". Other dogs know about that, so aren't amazed.

Thanks a lot! (I sure hope I can figure out clicker training. Somebody from here recommended a trainer about 1.5 hours away; maybe that will work for something somehow. But if not, I guess I can keep doing it badly, because it's not like it's going to ruin it if I start doing it well sometime. I don't want to ruin "yes!" as a marker, so I'm saving it for when I can get it figured out better.

Best advice I heard for 'less experienced' people was to imagine the mark as the shutter button on a camera - capture the behaviour that you want and click.

Work on your timing in the car on the way to work - mark (out loud) everytime the guy in front hits his brakes or goes too close to the centre line... sounds stupid but it'll improve your timing no end - most marker training is about timing

(Answer to reliable ob commands):
"Down. Sit sometimes goes to down, so I won't say that one. He can do that with distractions in the house; such as cat audience, cat eating, etc. I don't think there are much more distractions in the house; nothing much else happens in here, lol."


One command is reliable inside with no distractions? I think you need to work on a couple more so you have two or three that are 100% reliable indoors with no distractions. "Look at me"? Do you work on that?

Then one by one, when 100% reliable, each one is moved around from room to room, no patterns and no order to what one you give.

Then the dog will sometimes be on the front porch or wherever a "kind of in the yard" place is.

Then controlled distractions are worked out outdoors (contained, of course) that are not within his trigger range.

You have no reliable ob outdoors. That would be my gradual goal.

In fact, you have no reliable ob indoors except down. So you have plenty to work on, in short, upbeat, start-and-end good sessions.

Also I want to add. Timing can be improved if you say the word less and observing more.

If a dog knows the command, but is a bit confused.

Say the command once

Wait until the dog sits, no more verbal repeats.

Mark (Using a clicker)

Treat.

If a dog is new to the command, don't use verbal command to teach a new command.

Observing and marking will be the way to start.

It gets the dog to think. "What did I do right?"

For example, if a dog has trouble with barking, mark every time when he is being quiet. Then teach the command "Quiet" later.

During my early days of learning marker training, I have tried training my dog while holding on to a pencil in MY mouth.

This made me realize how useless talking to the dog is (as long as he is motivated for the food) and how much quickly he will learn the behaviour with just the clicks.

I do not recommend this as a standard method, but it will be a nice self experiment to see for ourselves how quickly our dogs learn if we stop confusing them with too much information.

This experiment gave me the conviction to talk less during training.

Subconsciously I was convinced that I could talk to my dog and communicate with him through speaking. This made me blurt out un necessary words when I felt that he needed "help". This made me do things like repeat the command as if he did not hear it the first time!!!!

The pencil holding exercise made me aware of how much easier it was for him to learn if I just let him do the thinking with out me blabbering at him.


After a few of the pencil held clicker sessions, I was speaking lesser and lesser because I think subconsciously I understood that being silent is more helpful.

 Quote: Tanith Wheeler

Best advice I heard for 'less experienced' people was to imagine the mark as the shutter button on a camera - capture the behaviour that you want and click.

Work on your timing in the car on the way to work - mark (out loud) everytime the guy in front hits his brakes or goes too close to the centre line... sounds stupid but it'll improve your timing no end - most marker training is about timing

I thought I was doing that, clicking as soon as his butt hit the floor, or his chest was down, etc. But I also do it if he keeps doing the behavior. If he lies in his bed next to me, I'll occasionally click/treat, just for continuing to lie there. I didn't think I'd have to do that forever, but I thought it was reinforcing him.

No I understand totally how an awareness exercise like that can help. It usually shows how hard whatever you're trying do is to do right.

So do you continue that forever, marking right at the moment? I feel like I've been doing that with "sit" first, then going into "down", the whole time. Mondo doesn't of the mark as a release; he just keep sitting until I (usually) tell him "down", or now sometimes "up". So I keep marking for him doing a continued good thing. I don't know how to let him know now if it's supposed to be a release.

Also like if I'm working in the kitchen, and he's there, he knows I like him to "down" away from me, and not wander around right under my feet. So he "downs", stares at me, and I click/treat, even though I didn't tell him, but because it's a good behavior. Is that something I'm not supposed to do? I ignore him getting up, etc. at any time because that's what my first trainer did, ignoring any unasked for behavior (ANY unasked for behavior, even very bad behavior, that's why I didn't continue with her.)

I didn't understand why you guys said my timing was so off, because I don't know how to mark any faster without anticipating him, but it was probably how I've developed this "continuing to mark" thing, which now that I think about, I may have just started that on my own.

I did have a professional teach me a little, and watch me click right away, so I do know what you mean with that. I think I've drifted from the proper method over time, clicking way too many times.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

(Answer to reliable ob commands):
One command is reliable inside with no distractions? I think you need to work on a couple more so you have two or three that are 100% reliable indoors with no distractions. "Look at me"? Do you work on that?

Well since I'm not sure that "sit" from "down" is reliable, I don't know if "sit" counts, but he will always do that is standing. Yes, saying his name always makes him look at me, but he looks at me so much anyway, it's kind of like not even a command. Focus without real distractions, including in the house, in the yard, etc. is not a problem with him. (Not really distractions include other dogs, cats, normal activity of BF, etc. Distractions would include being on a walk and wanting to sniff, chase squirrels, etc. Extreme distraction is somnething like hole in a tree that he thinks something is in; he goes wild, jumps up and down, tries to bite and dig the tree, and I have to physically remove him.)

 Quote:

Then one by one, when 100% reliable, each one is moved around from room to room, no patterns and no order to what one you give.

Yes, the commands he knows, he'll do them anywhere in the house/garage/yard. It's a little nasty outside now for standing still and sitting and downing and stuff, but we can work on recall. The problem with that is he always comes to me in the house or yard; in fact he never leaves me. Walking in the woods--sometimes now; he doesn't run away, but he doesn't always come right to me either, if he's more interested in what he's doing.

 Quote:

Then the dog will sometimes be on the front porch or wherever a "kind of in the yard" place is.

The yard is not too distracting for him. An occasional squirrel out of the corner of his eye or something, but he will re-focus on me pretty well. He wants me to interact with him all the time outside too; in fact if I don't, he will bug me, trying to tempt to with a stick, jumping around in play postures, etc. In some ways he is still very puppyish.

 Quote:

Then controlled distractions are worked out outdoors (contained, of course) that are not within his trigger range.

Yes, we can keep practicing that. I will have him focus on me during walks. That's not something I've done much of.

 Quote:

You have no reliable ob outdoors. That would be my gradual goal.

Yes.

 Quote:

In fact, you have no reliable ob indoors except down. So you have plenty to work on, in short, upbeat, start-and-end good sessions.

Oh yea I forgot about "give" and "leave it" and general "don't chew on the blanket/your bed/my slipper/whatever thing is near your mouth at the moment". I can just go like "eh" now, hardly even sounding like a correction, and he will stop whatever "bad" thing he's doing, which he always knows what that is.

 Quote: Lindsay Janes

Also I want to add. Timing can be improved if you say the word less and observing more.

If a dog knows the command, but is a bit confused.

Say the command once

Wait until the dog sits, no more verbal repeats.

Mark (Using a clicker)

Treat.

If a dog is new to the command, don't use verbal command to teach a new command.

Observing and marking will be the way to start.

It gets the dog to think. "What did I do right?"

For example, if a dog has trouble with barking, mark every time when he is being quiet. Then teach the command "Quiet" later.

You know, I had forgotten about that part where you don't do the command before he knows the action. I was trying to teach him to "stand", and I realized I was saying it a lot and he had no idea what it was. I'll go back to the correct way, now that I remember it.

I've degenerated into a lot of bad technique, I realize. I'm just doing some kind of mish-mash training that involves a clicker.

 Quote: Ramachandran Subramanian

During my early days of learning marker training, I have tried training my dog while holding on to a pencil in MY mouth.

This made me realize how useless talking to the dog is (as long as he is motivated for the food) and how much quickly he will learn the behaviour with just the clicks.

I do not recommend this as a standard method, but it will be a nice self experiment to see for ourselves how quickly our dogs learn if we stop confusing them with too much information.

This experiment gave me the conviction to talk less during training.

Subconsciously I was convinced that I could talk to my dog and communicate with him through speaking. This made me blurt out un necessary words when I felt that he needed "help". This made me do things like repeat the command as if he did not hear it the first time!!!!

The pencil holding exercise made me aware of how much easier it was for him to learn if I just let him do the thinking with out me blabbering at him.


After a few of the pencil held clicker sessions, I was speaking lesser and lesser because I think subconsciously I understood that being silent is more helpful.

I'll try that. I know I am talking waaay too much, and also often thinking that Mondo understands the words, but he is actually just guessing (right, a lot of times) what I want, because sometimes he gets it wrong and words don't help, so I know it was just an illusion of communication with words.

Fetch question:

After more time in the crate, Mondo find fetch much more fun all of a sudden. He used to love it, then gradually didn't like it so much, to the point where it only lasted one or two throws.

It was like he figured it out quickly, and thought, "Why the hell am I doing this over and over? This is stupid."

Ok, so the question is about the last time, when he won't fetch, and I have to go get the thing. I usually encourage him, maybe successfully, usually not, to get it. Then I just quit playing fetch, do something else. I've tried ignoring him and when he bugs me, tell him, "Get your toy/rope/whatever it is!", trying to give him the idea that I'm waiting for him to do it. If he doesn't, I take him to show him what I want. Usually by that time, he wants the thing again, so we can play again.

How do you handle the last throw of fetch that he won't go get? It may happen the second time, so I can't quit while he still wants to play always. I do try to do that when I can; stopping before he's bored.