Ya know, I had a great post, lots of information but decided to delete it. Why? I honestly don't think she's gonna listen to a damn word I say.

I am done - she needs to watch the DVDs- as Connie has said HOW MANY TIMES???

--Kelly

Edited by Kelly (01/11/2012 08:15 PM)
Edit reason: I give up

Yikes.

I would not usually comment on a thread dealing with dog aggression. I am not skilled in this issue, and I think it is dangerous to give advice over the internet. So i will not get into how to address that side of the equation, and focus on the marker training and day to day training here.

I just have to say something because when you describe your marker training you are not only doing it wrong and not training the dog to sit/stay/come in a reliable way, you are TRAINING THE DOG TO BE DOMINANT AND PUSHY. Step away from the clicker and the treat bag. Step away from the computer. Read, watch the DVDs and think hard about what you are doing with Mondo.

Dogs are amazingly adaptable and forgiving. You can make this work. Stop throwing dog training and dog temperment terms around, stop justifying your dog's aggression and fear.

Imagine treating a young child like this. He gets up and goes to the bathroom on his own. What a good boy. You give him some candy. He ties his shoe. What a good boy, you give him some candy. He points to a bird outside- what a good boy, you give him some candy. He smiles in an extra cute way- what a good boy, you give him some candy.

Now... he starts to draw on the wall, and stops when you come in. What a good boy- candy. He runs in the house but he looks cute while he does it- what a good boy- candy. He runs toward the street but lets you catch him- what a good boy-candy.

What is he learning? Nothing. Nothing except that you are inconsistent, and constantly provide candy especially if he does something bad. The candy has lost value completely. You have lost any ability to control him. Started out as a good kid... now.. not so much.

No wonder treats don't excite Mondo. He gets them all the time. For breathing.

This is a dog with some natural aggressive tendencies. Call it reactive or not, he needs to be controlled or at the least, managed.

Right now, you are asking him to control you. In fact, you are TRAINING him to control you.

I am not a professional dog trainer. I'm still learning with my dogs. I still make mistakes and need advice from better dog trainers. My dogs aren't perfect. I certainly don't know everything, and different dogs need different types of training. Were this my dog, I may not keep him because of the fear-aggression issues. Call it what you want, threatening someone like that more than once is not acceptable. Once, OK, you didn't know. Twice to multiple times depending on how you rate needing to 'soothe' him on the trail and excuse his aggressive behavior by saying he is a 'shelter dog'- well, you should have trained or contained the dog.

Rovena- you keep asking these questions that make me wonder if you can even learn or change the way you see your dog. I think your dog can learn. I really do. I hardly think that Mondo is that unusual. I agree with CJ. This is an owner issue, not a dog issue. The dog has some reactive and aggressive tendencies. Fine. Train him, build up his confidence in you as a leader.

From what I can tell, and the bit I've managed to read/wade through, the training you are doing right now does more harm than good. You are training him to be dominant. You really are. Stop. Think. Read, listen, watch the DVDs and watch the best out there, Cindy and Michael Ellis and how they interact with dogs. Their body language, timing, and the dog responses.

Don't stop training, but do change the way you are training. With human aggression there is no room for error. NONE.

Probably a waste of time, but thought I'd give it a shot as this is a public forum and maybe at least someone can learn something. There are many great books and DVDs out there on marker training and pack structure. Working with your dog is the only way to learn. You can read and read and read- you need to train to progress.

As Kiersten pointed out, Maybe someone out there will get something out of my post. So here it is:

Quote: Rovena Kessinger
Fetch question:

After more time in the crate, Mondo find fetch much more fun all of a sudden. He used to love it, then gradually didn't like it so much, to the point where it only lasted one or two throws.

It was like he figured it out quickly, and thought, "Why the hell am I doing this over and over? This is stupid."

Ok, so the question is about the last time, when he won't fetch, and I have to go get the thing. I usually encourage him, maybe successfully, usually not, to get it. Then I just quit playing fetch, do something else. I've tried ignoring him and when he bugs me, tell him, "Get your toy/rope/whatever it is!", trying to give him the idea that I'm waiting for him to do it. If he doesn't, I take him to show him what I want. Usually by that time, he wants the thing again, so we can play again.

How do you handle the last throw of fetch that he won't go get? It may happen the second time, so I can't quit while he still wants to play always. I do try to do that when I can; stopping before he's bored.


There is a section on the Marker DVD on how to get the dog more excited to work (play) with you (I know it is because I am in the what not to do section along with Drift).

You need to BE FUN!! The dog has to see playing with you as the BEST THING IN THE WORLD. It's not the toy, it's the interaction with you. If your dog is getting bored or distracted after one or two throws, or just a little tugging, then you aren't fun enough. My dogs don't ever take off with a toy or refuse to retrieve it- they ALWAYS bring it back for more fun play... and I decide whether or not I want to continue.

Ed used me and Drift to show what happens when you aren't fun enough for your dog. I stood there (as I was told to do, by the way- felt the need to defend myself a little) and Drift lost interest in me. Then Cindy came along and got her to play by just backing up and making fun noises. If you watch that section you will see that Cindy even made the treat delivery fun.

You just really seriously need to watch those DVDs again- it really sounds like you got NOTHING out of them- no understanding of markers, can't play correctly, can't deliver the treat correctly, etc, etc, etc.

Get off the computer, and watch the DVDs again. Then, watch them again. The information you are looking for is there- you just have to listen and pay attention. Not skip over sections saying "that's got nothing to do with MY dog."

Ok, so the question is about the last time, when he won't fetch, and I have to go get the thing. I usually encourage him, maybe successfully, usually not, to get it. Then I just quit playing fetch, do something else. I've tried ignoring him and when he bugs me, tell him, "Get your toy/rope/whatever it is!", trying to give him the idea that I'm waiting for him to do it. If he doesn't, I take him to show him what I want. Usually by that time, he wants the thing again, so we can play again.

This, by the way just reinforced him to NOT play, and to PLAY ON HIS TERMS. He wouldn't play, so you go get the toy, and quit. THAT'S WHAT HE WANTED. Then when he started bugging you, you played with him again. Probably until he got bored and quit, at which point you went and got the toy- again.

Just an observation. I am sure I'll get a "yeah, but he doesn't do that anymore" which would make my entire post a waste of time...can you REALLY NOT understand why we are getting frustrated???

After reading and skimming again I think you're on the way to doing great!

It would help if your posts were shorter and to the point. I know, I am guilty of long posts, but mine pale in comparison to yours.

It really sounds like you would benefit from working with a professional who can point out the behaviours that you are giving your dog that are counter-productive for both of you.

I recently worked with a new trainer and she pointed out to me all the ways I was rewarding Jethro for being pushy, and also exacerbating his reactivity with my excited reactions. By making a few simple changes I have been able to have much more enjoyment with Jethro and much less heart-stopping incidents of reactivity.

I believe that the O.P. is re-watching the videos, using pause and review and maybe reminder notes.

I know when I first got them, those two DVDs were always in my player (one or the other).

And seeing some things one may have slipped into, like repeating commands, multiple-marks, etc., it will be much clearer that attention should be paid and that if something is fuzzy -- watch it again.

"You need to BE FUN!! The dog has to see playing with you as the BEST THING IN THE WORLD. It's not the toy, it's the interaction with you. "

SO TRUE! Ought to be a lighted billboard.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote:

..... general "don't chew on the blanket/your bed/my slipper/whatever thing is near your mouth at the moment".

I fear that we are again losing sight of the biggest goal here, which is basic ob with total focus on you that you can make bulletproof -- that can be (eventually) relied on as new alternate behavior when he is near a trigger situation.

I was trying to tell you what I'd done up til now; like how I got him to quit doing that, and I don't know if that was a good way to do it or not. I guess it wasn't. During training he has good focus; I know, work on it outside.

 Quote:

Did you ever play two-ball? Are you exciting and excited? Do you use an item he loves to play with?

No I haven't tried two-ball; I forgot about that, thanks. I hope so. He only loves things for a short time, especially if they aren't new. I rotate; that helps some.

 Quote: Anne Jones

14 PAGES NOW!!!! And yet still not listening to the good advisc that people here have tried repetedly (out of care for the dog) to give you.

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO LEARN TO TRAIN OR JUST TALK ABOUT IT?!!

It seems that you do just the opposite that you have been told to do: dog should NEVER be off leash. Watch the DVDs, etc etc etc. .... but...but....but.... SERIOUSLY?!

If you spent as much time training as you do posting on this thread....your dog would thank you!

Thanks for your help but I think if you don't read all my posts, which I realize is very difficult to do, some things taken out of context are misunderstood. I'm not sure why you think I'm not doing anything when I'm asking 5 billion questions about how I can do it better, but I'm sure it is my failure to communicate properly.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

NILIF is all the time, yes.

Virtually all the rest of the post is answered in the DVDs. Some of the questions are very surprising coming from someone who watched them, which is why I've said several times now to re-watch them. Study them, in order (#219 -- Markers -- and then #220 -- Food).

I think you didn't understand the question, but that's OK. We've settled into the NILF we can live with.