Quote: Duane Hull

I am learning from the information that Willie is sharing with Solange.

I am also following this thread with baited breath, Duane, and am paying close attention to all of Willie's instructions as well

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If anyone knows of a scored one for older dogs please let me know BTW....I have to get that other thread started soon...lol

http://atts.org/

I like the ATTS. I've been the scary stranger in two of them.
The only problem is that to many train for these tests of "natural" behaviors.
With the case of Solange and her pup I think it would be worth looking into simply because they are across the pond and aren't familiar with it. Also the dog has been raised as a "pet" with no bite work, etc. There is an age requirement of 18 months. That, to me, could possibly be to young for some of the larger, slower maturing breeds. The results are also breed specific in that you wouldn't want a Beagle to go after the "scary stranger" just as a GSD that ignores or wants to play with the "scary stranger" could flunk.

I've actually used that test on a mal we had. I think Will R had directed me there.
I think? In my research that I ran across a paper on the negative impact parts of the test can have on fear stages in younger dogs. And I totally agree on the possibility of 18 mo being too young for LSGD breeds.
I've done research and in my experience a pup should never be placed in a 'work' environment where they can feel trapped or have to engage defense before two at the earliest.
IMO is one of the main reasons LSGD 'fail' to guard their livestock. They were dumped out there at a year old or younger and left to guard the critters. They get over faced a best, injured at worst. This is for pups that are being owner trained as opposed to pups that are living with their working parents and sibs. I can assure you that in most all cases when there is danger those pups are lumped into the flock and protected by mom and dad. Not out helping defend.
Anyway. That is why I didn't use that one. I do like it though. Just not here for this pup.
We actually took that Mal back to the seller based on the results of the test. It turned out to be weak nerved and hid during the stranger test. That dog was a hot mess anyway.......

Day 9 in bootcamp: Ziva is starting to show signed of depression.....When Willie said that to me on skype yesterday, my heart sank.....But Willie reasured me that because we are going to start giving back previleges and that dogs live in the moment all will be find.....so the following is how Ziva has been behaving yesterday and what we will add to her daily activities:

Ziva has been good on walk #1-2 and 3, the usual play with the tug corde/ball tiggny, the sit on stops and doing her business on designated area (that was not always the case)

Willie and I have met on Skype to exchange notes from the Volhard test (Willie will probably explaine the reasons of her scoring) : The score went as follow:

SOCIAL ATTRACTION: I had given Ziva a 2, Willie gave her a 3
FOLLOWING: I had given a 3, Willie a 2
RESTRAINT: I had given a 5 Wille was not able to score this element as I did not restraint the dog accordingly to the test. But knowing the history of the dog and seeing the videos on other element she guessed Ziva would have got a 3.
SOCIAL DOMINANCE: I had score Ziva with a 3, Willie a 2 or a 3
ELEVATION: Willie and I both gave a 4
RETRIEVING: I had score her a 3, Willie a 2
TOUCH SENSITIVITY: Willie and I gave a 2
SOUND SENSITIVITY: I had given a 3, Willie a 2
SIGHT SENSITIVITY: I had given between a 2 and a 3, Willie from the video gave a 1 but after hearing a situation where Ziva reacted to ballons attatched on a door 2 days ago she would probably give a 4.
SENSITIVITY: We both gave a 3 but again with the situation with the ballons Willie would probably given her a 2 1/2.

Changes in bootcamp:

Ziva yesterday did not want to come out her crate....I had to kneel down and use a happy voice to have her come out....when she reached me she but her hed on my chest and press.....That is what Willie called signs of depression......on the last walk we started to add the previleges to Ziva. She get 3 sessions of play and doing what puppy do,, sniffing, rub on grass, fetch ball, or towel.....these sessions are of 5 to 10 min. I must interrupt the sessions if she show signes of pack misbehavior. I am to also add jogging for 5 to 10 min spread out during these 50 min walks. (we need practice with that lol....it is all play and do not follow well,,,lots of jumping and bitting the leash or my hands from play excitment)

Still no commands except corrections on pack unwanted behavior.

She also gets to play in the garden a few times a day for 5-10 min or until she looses interest before that we stop the play time there.

I have to get some material, a prong collar, a harnest to initiate Ziva on having it on and eventually she will pull.

I will have Willie explain her theory and terminology on how she sees Ziva...but she is saying that she has an unusual high prey drive for a LGD.

Ok time for breackfast to the dog and go for our first walk of the day....it is raining here and cold and will be like this for the next 5 days....but I will not let it be a set back lol.

Hoping to read comments

keep well everyone

First outing of the day, second time with "Time Off" She did not play as much with me per say.....wanted to keep the ball for herself and willing to let it go only on exchange of a treat. The jogging went better ONLY if she got to keep the rope/ball tiggny in her mouth. Less jumping towards my body parts lol....oh boy she is much faster than me I need to get back into shape. The heeling was not there at the beginning of our walk only by the end and I think that is because she was starting to feel fatigue.

Oh!!! She did something for the first time....only in Time Off though not on the leash while walking, she barked and ran after 2 cars.....I have to know how to not let it become a bahavior....I gave an Avoidance Correction.....I mean 1- she went full force barking/running,2- I gave a high level correction on the leash while I said "NO"......wonder if that is the way to do it....The second car she did not bark but started running I gave a high level correction with a "NO" Willie I need your comments on that please.

She did her business in designated areas.
cheers

first play time in the garden: She got to see toys she had not seen for over a week,( 2 toys) was happy, fetched and droped the ball at my feet for a treat....then shaking the stuffed heart she loves so much....she liked to be reunited with that one. keept offering it to me by pushing it against my leg.....played with that a while....then she started to jump and bite at hands and pulling on my sleve....got her to stop for a short period by redirecting her with a toy....but after a short while she prefered just jump on me and all my attempts on crying "outch" to make her stop and taking her down and holding her by the shoulders saying, no, not nice....did not work....ended up taking her back in, into the crate. in total we stayed about 5 min outside.

Oh yeah! she is on a 20' line while we are out there....before bootcamp she used to bark sometime when the neighbour would drive by in the alleyway....today she ran full force and barked....she autocorrected herself as she came at the end of the line.....is there something starting with cars now?

You're going to fall into always reacting to what she does, plan ahead. When you take her out by traffic, teach her to lay down or sit. Then if you correct her, its for not following your command. Don't let her get spun up about the cars, by that time I think you're going to be too late and those heavy corrections are not going to be clear to her. I'm not so sure you're going to be able to create avoidance to what you're trying to.

If she's not playing the way she should, biting you instead of the toy, etc.. I wouldn't go with ouch, that route. A firm NO. Down. An absolute clear interruption of what she's doing, then after a pause give her a chance to try again. Make it clear, that was wrong, this is right.

I agree with you Steve, but at this point in the bootcamp program that Willie started with Ziva I am instructed not to give any sit, or lay down command,,,,NO OBEDIENCE .....I am a little stuck here. But in other scenario I would have made her sit or lay down....I used to do it for joggers, and motorbikes....but now???...As for the bitting if the ouch doesn't make her stop I do say no....and it seams she is so caught up in her thing she continues...What I did today, because we were home in the garden when that happened I took her to the crate. I stopped the play time.

Thanks for sharing

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As for the bitting if the ouch doesn't make her stop I do say no

That's too much like you're going to let her do it once, but now you really mean it. Stop it the first time. If you aren't going to do any obedience at all, don't take her out. She's going to learn to ignore you and pick up whatever bad habits she feels like, and then you're right back to fighting her trying to stop things.