Note to Steve :
first of all.....Thank you Steve!!!!!!
The reason behind no obedience is she was doing it old schoolish. Correcting the dog when the dog didn't know the task. And giving a really high level correction because of the flat martingale.


Regular post:
First of all I want to say again that normally you would not proceed the way I did with a young puppy.
I had limited choices in this situation.
1. Walk away and not help them knowing I have the ability to do so. That would risk either of them getting hurt or the pup returned to the breeder and passed to another home that isn't prepared for her unusual drives.
2. Help her but how to do that at a distance. I chose to take the conservative route and put the pup in an adult boot camp knowing she might get a bit depressed and also knowing she would most likely be wild when we start to take her out.
Given the distance and the fact that I had no idea how much talent and effort Solange had to offer I went with the most conservative option I could.
The pup presented with some issues that were serious and not to sound cliché....but safety first.
So the main problem here is that Solange does not have a prong collar yet. When I have seen her correct the dog for pack misbehaviors and not obeying a comand the pup isnt proofed on with the martingale collar she has to really do it hard to get the pups attention. The pup not having been taught her manners yet often views this as unfair and gets really resentful. This is a large part of the problems that they are having. That and the ridiculously high prey drive this pup has.

I have told Solange that this is going to take a bunch of hard work and this is a serious working dog. She wants to keep her and work with her.
In effect the situation right now by not having the prong is not a good one. When she acts up its like slapping a toddler for not listening by using the martingale for correction. The pup is over 65 lbs and hyper with high prey drive. She does not even hear Solange until she lets her have it with the collar.
I don't think the pup will be too reactive with the prong if the corrections are administered right the prong will allow Solange to give much lower level corrections and the pup to hear the corrections instead of only having a level 9 or 10.

I know this sounds sooo hard but any correction with the martingale is only going to make things worse. IMO after having seen the videos and the corrections.
A prong or e-collar is a MUST in a situation like this.

This is the first day she has had any freedoms and she is going to be WILD for a few days.
We will proceed with a more normal and appropriate puppy boot camp starting tomorrow with lots of exercise and free play between now and then.
We need to work on properly trained obedience with markers and no corrections for unknown tasks.

I think now might be a good time to start some new threads for the specific problems Solange is having. I have a better feel for the pup and temperament it's a surprising result IMO. I think for the most part THIS particular LSGD in practice is going to train much more like a working line GSD.


The results I got on the test are solid to strong nerves, socially engaged with the owner, high prey drive, dominant personality..not too bad though, and strong tendencies to develop passive aggressive leading to aggressive responses to perceived unfair corrections.
She however did not go up the leash at Solange after the two unfair level 9 corrections I saw on the video. She tried to distract Solange by initiating prey drive based play. Chewed on her sleeve, bit and chewed on her hands and arm.
Possible recourse guarding development but not yet and food aggression as to be expected due to breed considerations and prior handling.

Got to run. I hope I don't ramble on too much.
Solange. In respect to the car thing. Go back to what was working for now to controll her.
It's prey drive. We can't have her developing issues with cars so go back to what you were doing that worked to keep her from doing it. It's top priority that she does not make that a habbit. We can shoot for a Skype tomorrow morning.
Start a thread on car chasing and how to distract train her using markers and such as opposed to compulsion (not that you are doing a bunch of compulsion)
Also maybe a thread on how to manage a high drive 65 lb 5 mo puppy from jumping an biting. Search and study past threads and take notes on what you think applies to her. We can go over that on Skype as well.
People here will have GREAT ideas on things to so and try. I will help you filter what are the best options for her.
Be sure to couch your requests for information not from a LSGD angle but from her temperament analysis.
Hugs!!!!


Sent from my iPhone

Solange, I'm not the brightest bulb so I like to keep things as simple as possible. The biggest issue I think is what Willies pointed out to you with the collar your using. Its worse then useless. Trying to give her a physical correction like you are probably looks like you're attacking her in her eyes, but without any real physical consequence. At best, you're teaching her to ignore you.

I think deprivation is the wrong approach with this dog from the sound of it. She sounds like the complete opposite of an independent, aloof dog. Depriving them of toys and attention can build a value for that stuff, but since she already values it, its just going to be counter productive frustration. Get going with what she likes, use it Solange.

Distance from distractions, cars, joggers, other dogs, will be very helpful. Don't put her in a place where she's going to react while you're teaching her to behave. Later on that distance can decrease. They have to learn to deal with things, have some self control, but its easier to teach them what you want without having to fight against all that. Willie's right, its probably better to have a separate thread for specific training situations.

I still think its important to respect things that are specific to a breed. Heavy handed isn't a great approach with a dog like this, and when I say she'll resist, I don't mean anything more then she's not going to respond the way you want, but if she's a dog that wants to engage, use it. Don't try to shut it down.

When you change collars, don't go overboard. Keep your focus on what works with teaching her. I would keep in mind what you've conditioned her to with that Martingale. The prong is going to be a huge shock to her, have a plan, don't just jump into any surprises with her.

Going along with what Willie said above ....

I'm also a little worried that we are TALKING about a prong, but still don't have one, so far in, and are doing no ob because of it.

That martingale was a huge mistake, in my eyes, but then I almost always think they are.



And that third paragraph of Steve's .... YES. Don't set the dog up to be corrected:

"They have to learn to deal with things, have some self control, but its easier to teach them what you want without having to fight against all that."

Get away from the cars, the joggers, other dogs, and all that. Those are very high level distractions.



"Willie's right, its probably better to have a separate thread for specific training situations."

and

"I still think its important to respect things that are specific to a breed. Heavy handed isn't a great approach with a dog like this .... "

So do I, and that's why we both recommended Willie!


".... and when I say she'll resist, I don't mean anything more then she's not going to respond the way you want, but if she's a dog that wants to engage, use it. Don't try to shut it down."


I think it has come across clearly that you were using inappropriate methods, and it's time to use appropriate ones.


I have no experience with the LGBs. But I still think that there remains a big chunk of training protocol that "works" for all breeds.

Before to introduce PLay time orTime off and jogging into our daily walking sessions Ziva never ran after cars I am being honnest she never did.....The joggers and bikes she doesn't pay attention to them neither....if I spot them ahead of time I stop and she sits....and go on once they have passed last week we were surprised by a jogger that came across the corner of the road she did not have time to sit but she just looked at him with interest .....but this particular episode was while we were doing our minute of jogging, and she just did an about turn and ran after the car and the other time was in the soccer field, we were coming back to the road she was still on the line and she went for the car....that day on the same walk, on the leash, walking normaly, she did not budge when cars came driving by....that is why I asked if that was a new problem starting or if it is that the excitement from playing got her prey drive to peak. The correction, I apologize but it was either that or I was going with her.

As I explained to Willie, we live in the country.....I have been suggested not to take her out where there is a lot of distraction....beside the odd car, the 4 dogs that I try to avoid now....there is nothing.... The village I live in has 3 streets, it takes 3 minutes to cross it and be in the country with cows and horses.....it is exactly where I walk her.....but people jogg in the country, people drive their car ....and like I said this is totaly new for her to run after cars....and the neighbor's car in the alleyway, is when she is on the line too....before she would have this bark that someone was driving by but never ran like this.

bump to current

Hello flolks

Willie had also come to conclusion that the car chassing was due to the fact that her prey drive got triggered from the Play time and she carried on into that mode during the walk and the environment became high distraction even though she had not done it before. The solution for the time being is to have her Play time or "time off" as I discribed it previously in other post, separately in the garden. Since I have been doing that, she doesn't go after cars anymore.

After a long meeting with Willie yesterday I have new home work and Ziva will be ongoing other exercises and we will introduce other activities in her daily routine. such as:

- Keep rewarding good behavior (that is not new though)

- Load the mark: 150 times a day divided by 3 (with high value treats)

- play tug (hard play) = observation of her reaction when pushed to the ground. Will she look stunned, will she come right back before touching the ground kind of or will she love it and come back asking for more interaction of the kind in a playful manner? My husband is to film one play session so Willie can study the dog's reaction. After 10 to 15 min of this or until the dog shows fatigue, end this play time with some down time both having a drink, rest and light grooming. She needs physical soft contact. Then put her back in the crate. (do not worry, I will ware my thick leather gloves I use to carry wood and thick sleeves lol)

- obedience sessions (until I get the prong collar, this obedience session is good behavior reinforcement only, no leash corrections) I am getting the prong on Saturday and need to consult with Willie before to apply any work with it)

Starting Monday when the house will be occupied only by her and I, I will start tethering.

Her day will consist of: 2 to 3 walks a day + 1 hard play session with light grooming + 3 loading the marck sessions and 2 obedience sessions.

Willie suggested that I start with a tug play time right before a walk and study her behavior.....I need to switch the order of the routine and find what suites her better. (will take notes)

The reason behind this is that we need to introduce distraction very slowly in a structure she will need. The experience of having her "time off" during the walks for 2 days showed us that new behavior and change or routine increases distraction therefore her prey drive.

2 new posts are comming, one on car and cat chassing and the second on managing a large breed puppy with hig prey drive.

Will keep updating....all of this is very exciting, Ziva is responding beautifuly. Now she comes running to me even though she has her head buried in a hole digging. Before I had to go get her.....she often looks at me on walks....that is also new....she is responding very well to all of the changes. I will never say thank you enough.....or may be I have to invent a new word lol

cheers

Routine and observations: May 26th

Some of the following is also posted on the thread How would you handle your hig prey drive puppy: Sorry if I am repeating....not sure if this the right thing to do....someone will say so if I am making a mistake

This morning I took her out potty....she has been used to sit when the door opens and wait till I go through then say “come” before she can step out....This morning I was sleepy, I opened the door she stood before me, she sat and looked at me, I saw that she was waiting for me to step forward first and tell her to come through......so I did and she came lol....Nice I find....that is a huge milestone in regard of respect in pack structure don’t you think?
She did not come when I called her from the garden, I had to go get her.

Because Willie has me Loading the Marck with Ziva the past few days I listened for the second time the Podcast on Marker Training and that being fresh in my mind I thought that some things that Ed suggests could be used with the situation I was facing at the time.

Later I took her out of the crate, she was very hyper,,,had a hard time to put the collar on....she was jumping, holding me with her front paws.....”no” , “leave it” did not work so I took the initiative to act upon her behavior. Ed talks about “time out” in the crate for a few minutes when a dog shows no interest in working as he thinks that “time out” might motivate a dog to work, in my case to cooperate. So I put her back in the crate, I did not say anything, no treats and I was not angry.......she stayed there until she was calm but still sitting...she knew that her breakfast was waiting....I took her out again.....and again, jumping, bitting hands and sleeve.....I put her back in the crate, like the time before, no words and calmly....this time she gave a fuss. I waited till she lay down her head down to the floor before to take her out again....she sat when she came out of the crate, got leashed and walked to the door, sat, waited to be told to go through and did the same at the garage door where she is fed. Not because it worked that it means I did well....I would like your comments on that please.

Second initiative of the day: On migrating she wanted to play tug with the leash and jumped inviting me to play....once again having the Podcast fresh in my memory I chose to ignore that behavior not having yet a name for it and not having a solution at hand to correct it.....so each time she would let go of the leash I would mark it with a “yes” and give a treat....I did the same with the jumping, as soon she had 4 on the ground I would mark it “yes” give a treat......I did the same when she was walking nicely to my side....mark it ‘yes” give a treat......and also with the sitting on the stops. I did not give commands, did not remind her of anything, I ignored misbehavior and marked what I liked......it worked....the tug with the leash ended, the jumping ended and she got marked many times for the walking and the sitting. And I realized she looked at me often. Once again, not because it worked that it means I did well....I would like your comments on that please.

The only word I said was the "leave it" when she would pick up something and trade with a treat....that is well on its way and I don’t want her to keep stuff she picks up in her mouth......She did her business in the area I proposed....now this not being a command, I am just proposing her to do her things there she doesn’t have to comply if she doesn’t have to go....right? I praised her with “good girl” and a treat.

will keep updating, hope to read comments on these

"It worked"

That's the measure of success.

Sounds to me like you're really starting to figure out some techniques that get her to do what you want. Now, the job is to repeat with consistency 1000 times.

Don't get discouraged when she forgets, or resorts to old unwanted behaviors. Because she will--she's a puppy--and testing their limits is what they do. But now you know that if you stand your ground, require good behavior for getting what she wants (no matter how many attempts it takes) and ignoring unwanted behavior--she will comply.

That is the entirety of dog training right there. Now, just repeat successes and adapt those same principles for every other behavior situation.

Congratulations again on the terrific breakthroughs.

Thank you Tracy.....I feel so much better since all is starting to make sense in my mind.....I act differently, she gets it much better too....I have learned and still learning a great deal from everyone here one the webboard....I know about her trying to test me and see if what I ment the day before was the real McCoy....and I will persist and do it 1000 times over lol

Cheers

Your grasp of the marker training has grown tremendously!