Quote: scott garrett

The question I see Steve asking is "what is the ultimate reward for the dog that got him to this state of training".

I told Steve, I don't really know, but I forgot to ask the dog. I don't think that's necessarily something we will ever know. I think it's a mix of things we won't know combined with the fact that dogs DO derive "pleasure" from pleasing us and understanding/complying with what we are trying to get them to do. If you have never not given your dog a toy or treat for a followed command, this might not be something you think about. NOTE: don't think you can take all these things away from a dog who has been raised on them and think you will get the same results. The dog is likely to think he is NOT doing something right in the absence of a treat/toy at first.

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When Caleb found Mr. Clever, was it a pat on the head, a "good boy", and then it was over?

I don't remember exactly, but I will say that when he is about 50-75 feet from the find, he gets extremely excited and pulls harder toward it. This was not a hostile track, so if I remember right, he greeted Mr.Clever enthusiastically, and I told him what a good job he did, and probably how stupid I was to second guess him. Then we switched and walked off to allow Mr. Clever and his dog their turn. Maybe he considers the next long walk a reward...couldn't tell ya.

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Would it be possible that Caleb isn't the average dog? I'm asking because I'm extremely curious as to what you're doing. You seem to be saying that no reward is necessary because the dog is self rewarding every behavior and that you aren't really doing any training/teaching/whatever.

Caleb is nowhere near average. I have 7 dogs here now, and it takes someone about 30 seconds to see that he's not average. However, that's what makes it so painfully easy w/him, not what makes it possible. Any dog will do this; alot of it is just changing in your mind the "why" you are doing something. As far as the lack of teaching...that's not quite right. We are teaching them when to employ this great, fascinating skill that they already have. We are not teaching them the skill. That's my point. They know how to do it already; we need to show them when. Why they do it may be as simple as "why not?" I think if you are a fair leader/friend to your dog, he/she will have no reason to not do something that is asked of them. This goes along w/the removal of the food some people start out w/in OB. Once they understand, they no longer need reiforcement that they are doing the right thing, and will (if done properly) obey whether or not there is something tangible in it for them.

This thread is off on a tangent now and has been for quite a while, but to bring back the topic, I think it is entirely possible that the same dog who has a lot of "fight" like we were talking about earlier is also a dog w/generally more tenacity than average, hence the reason he will continue to track and not seem to get bored or disinterested in the absence of a staggered reward throughout the process.

<shrug> Another dog who is a bit more hectic in general and has a harder time focusing, for example, may get off on another track and stray and NOT stick with it when it got difficult, like Steve was saying. I don't know. I have tracked w/other dogs, and I admit Caleb is better. I would assume like in anything else, the dog is an individual and we need to remember that. They are not all motivated by the same things anymore than any of us are.He was certainly better/more reliable/tenacious than Xander, who is now going to be employed in this field, lol. All it takes is play/prey, like Lepic said. <sigh>

Ray, I am working on your PM.

"Ray, I think, may be unintentionally underestimating Steve's ability... The argument here is that some are professing to use no food or toys to teach a dog, only their own self motivation to please themselves or the handler. " (Jessica)


Thanks, Jessica. I was trying to compose a message to say exactly this.



"If you have never not given your dog a toy or treat for a followed command, this might not be something you think about." (Jenni)


I will assume that this was irony or a joke or teasing.

Lots of hyperbole in this thread.

No one has "never not given a toy or treat for a followed command." No one on this thread, anyway. Or I will eat my keyboard.

Let's use marker training, for example: The tangible reward is a teaching aid. Marker work does not mean that the handler lugs toys and food around forever, pulling one out for every compliance occasion.

As we all know.

NOTE: don't think you can take all these things away from a dog who has been raised on them and think you will get the same results. The dog is likely to think he is NOT doing something right in the absence of a treat/toy at first. (Jenni)

This isn't an issue if the work is done properly.

 Quote: jenni williams

Why they do it may be as simple as "why not?" I think if you are a fair leader/friend to your dog, he/she will have no reason to not do something that is asked of them. This goes along w/the removal of the food some people start out w/in OB. Once they understand, they no longer need reiforcement that they are doing the right thing, and will (if done properly) obey whether or not there is something tangible in it for them.

I've read this whole thread several times in an attempt to understand some of it. I've failed if you are curious.

This is not the point that I'm seeing others try to make.

 Quote: connie sutherland

"If you have never not given your dog a toy or treat for a followed command, this might not be something you think about." (Jenni)


I will assume that this was irony or a joke or teasing.

Lots of hyperbole in this thread.

No one has "never not given a toy or treat for a followed command." No one on this thread, anyway. Or I will eat my keyboard.

Let's use marker training, for example: The tangible reward is a teaching aid. Marker work does not mean that the handler lugs toys and food around forever, pulling one out for every compliance occasion.

As we all know.

NOTE: don't think you can take all these things away from a dog who has been raised on them and think you will get the same results. The dog is likely to think he is NOT doing something right in the absence of a treat/toy at first.

This isn't an issue if marker work is done properly. Or at least, that's MHO.

I don't even talk to Turbo anymore. Just winks, head nods, and the occasional grunt.

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Once they understand, they no longer need reiforcement that they are doing the right thing, and will (if done properly) obey whether or not there is something tangible in it for them.

And still police, search teams, everyone working dogs uses ongoing training with some type of rewards to reinforce what they do. I'm missing something again.

Yeah, but thats not for "Real" and "Serious" dogs though.

I had a long post, but there have been several responses now and rather than redo it, I'll say this:

I think is really hard to write anything in a way that everyone is going to understand it the same way. I have a certain mindset, so naturally, what I am doing makes sense to me and it works. I have a few great dogs, 2 really phenomenal ones, and maybe it's all dumb luck. I have always done things this way, and then I tried to do it "right" and interject all the reward stuff "everyone does." It worked to a degree, but I didn't see that it worked better than the way I had been doing it for years because I didn't know any differently than to just simply read the dog and adapt your actions to the reactions in the dog.

I can't use my same mindset and then try to apply it to something foreign to me, because to me and my way of thinking, while I might see how works from a mechanical aspect, it doesn't really make sense.<shrug>.

I read some of your posts and all I can think is HUH? THAT'S what they thought I do/meant/said????

I have learned that many times we can go on for pages and not "get" what the other person means and then spend 5 minutes on the phone and all of a sudden we see where they are coming from and it all falls into place. As great as the internet is, the written word is not always conducive to thorough understanding of concepts foreign to our current way of thinking. Now off to hang out w/my dogs...who know I'm nuts but like me anyway.

 Quote: Jenni Williams

....There are dogs who get rewarded via treat or toy for every single thing they do that they are asked.

I'm sure there are.

Fortunately, as I said, their owners/handlers (so far) aren't on this thread ---- hence my comment about hyperbole.

This is not what any real training that includes rewards is. I know that you know that.