Kristine I am complete agreement with most of what you said, right down to not depending on the prong collar as a crutch. I like it because it speeds training up in the distractions phase or even when they just get the feeling they 'don't feel like it' or they'll do it 'when they feel like it' in a response to a command. My dogs are that way if they know they can get away with it.

I thought the dogs mentioned were way past the learning stage. I wouldn't issue a physical correction to a dog who doesn't understand. I use them for when the dogs think they have me wrapped around their dirty toenails <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> and/or a point needs to be driven home. Most of my dogs training has been done without the prong but without it, it's a longer and very manual road to dependable results IME. I find that the quicker the prong correction is given we can move on like nothing happened, and the quicker it is to something more fun that we can do without the unpleasantness of having to deal with repeat offenses.

I would have to say that if a dog isn't consistently obeying you without a leash then you're still in the realms of the 'learning stage', as I call it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> You're right, the prong is a very useful tool. Used properly it provides very little conflict...I can just give it a bit of a pull to show the dog the minute mistakes he made in the heel or finish, for instance, while with a regular collar he wouldn't understand, think I'm just pulling him, decide to make a game out of it, and then things would get ugly.

I do like to give my dogs the feeling of 'getting away with it' so they'll realize how much it sucks. "Oh, okay, so I didn't sit. Hmm. Well, she's not doing anything. No treat, no ball. Okay, how about let's walk...wait, not that either. What, so we just stand here? Maybe I'll just sit, seems the easiest way out of it." Then the dog sits and bingo! It's like he won the lottery. Of course there are occasions when that doesn't work and then the prong comes in handy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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I would have to say that if a dog isn't consistently obeying you without a leash then you're still in the realms of the 'learning stage', as I call it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I never looked at it like that, I looked at it as the rebellious stage <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That's an interesting angle.

I like your 'getting away with it' strategy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I've used similar by completely ignoring them, but instead, just leaving them standing alone if we're at home, with good results. Thanks for sharing your perspective and methods <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Kristine and Barbra, thank you for your insightful posts.

My dogs have been through what you’re calling the “learning phase.” And from what I’m getting they are probably working me, not dreading the outcome of the wrong behavior or don’t feel my corrections always are warranting the correct response. For example, with my female if she counter surfs, she gets a verbal “no, off” response and I push her off the counter. Not hard where it hurts, but my tone of voice is clearing telling her she is not to do this. But she will do it again, later in the day or the next day. When she is dragging a leash and her prong is on she gets the same verbal response, but receives a correction with the prong. And yet she still is doing it. I also was told that when I was using food rewards and praise (after a command is learned), because they respond so well to it, they were working for the food, and not for me (this is what lead me to question my leadership). And I do feel sometimes that they just don’t feel like doing it, this I find more in distractions. That maybe this distraction has a pay off for them and my corrections aren’t getting the attention I would like. For example, with my male no matter how hard and how often I give him a correction, it is very hard to distract him from my cats. I have to completely remove him from the area. But when I put him in a sit stay in front of the cat and when he doesn’t zone in on the cat and offer a food reward I have some of his focus and he won’t be so zoned in.

And like you Kristine, if I give a command and then have to repeat it I don’t make it as big a deal when they do finally respond as I would if they responded the first time. You also mentioned “acting” like the leader. I have also done this with them, and it took some work for me to become more comfortable with it and I do feel I present it to them more now a days (comes easier).

And I feel pretty foolish admitting this, but when I was browsing through this site, I came across the right way to wear a prong collar, and I wasn’t placing it on them properly. It was too loose. Now that I have it where it should be the correcting seems more effective.

Barbra, I do feel that I am a nice leader. I try to be the strength and guidance they need, but I am not normally a tough gal unless I have to be. I do have a soft side and I guess they know me better than anyone. I do know persistence will pay off in the long run, and from what I’m getting from the responses on this post, I’m doing more right than wrong. I just need to keep an open mind and change what I’m doing wrong.

Thank again!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Please note the difference between working for you and working for food (reward and bribe):

You say sit, the dog sits. You place your hand in your pocket and get the food, praising him...

vs.

You show your dog a piece of cheese, and ask him to sit so he'll get it.

This is why I know my dogs are working for me. When they're older I start to substitute praise, but there's often a nice 'goodie' that'll come if I can afford it. And also, I don't actually give 'obedience' commands in the house, I more often just speak to them in regular tone (instead of saying "Platz," I sorta say, "Just settle down here, there you go."). That way they differentiate from the field and home and I don't have to sacrifice speed or anything like that.

I don't know how else to explain, honestly. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> My pup is also very distracted around cats, and the bad thing is when I go out and train, and a cat escapes from the house, they follow me all the way to the park and sit around watching me train. When the pup was younger he'd pull wanting to get at them, what I did was scruff shake him--(mind you he's a real hardhead so I was pretty sure it wasn't very effective). However last time we went out to train and the cat was out in the porch poking her head in business that wasn't hers as usual, he paid no attention to her and was totally focused to me.

Hope you figure things out with your doggies. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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My suggestion for new attitude in dog training: "I am my dog's leader, I will demand respect and obedience. I will reward with great affection, fairness and care."

Anne, this is very sound advice and one I will apply.
Thank you!!

Kristine, regarding the food rewards. This has been the most difficult thing I had to decide on to use or not to use. I used treats for both my dogs as soon as I got them, with housebreaking, learning sit, becoming comfortable with their crates, and currently helping my male Forrest with overcoming his fear of the car. And before I started using a prong on either one of them they both were taught all their basic commands.

When they were little I did have them follow the food to do the command that is how I taught them. As they got a little older the commands were followed real well with food rewards. And that’s with the food out of sight until after they followed the command. But once they got one piece, they knew more was likely to follow. I felt I had to change things. It started to become frustrating when I started weaning them off of it. As the food rewards started to become less predictable so did their behavior and although I feel I have great temperament dogs, they were a handful.

I do feel the same way you do. I know they are working for me with food rewards. But I don’t want to be dishing out a food reward every time I want them to listen. I offer a variety of rewards, from playing, food, pat on the side, kisses, and a rub under the muzzle or a scratch behind the ear and a toy or bone. And every time verbal praise. But a few times I have been commented that "they work for food not for you," and being a new German Shepherd owner, I’m just trying to get it right and I do start second guessing myself. I never connected with dogs the way I have with these two, and I have learned so much, I knew very little. I’m so glad I found this board and site, because it has made me see clearer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I’m sorry I didn’t respond sooner, got caught up in Anne’s post and over looked yours. Came back to review what you and Barbra were talking about and here I am. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Merry Christmas!

You can do two training things to remedy working for food not you.

1. Be absolutely controlling with the food. The only way they EVER get food is by pleasing you. You would ration out your dogs' portions and divide them into treat sizes. When you normally feed your dogs, you will give 3/4 their food ration as rewards for following very simple commands. The other 1/4 is used at other times that you tell your dog to do something. You don't need to give a treat for every command - it should be randomly, but often enough that your dogs do not lose interest in YOU.

2. I also recommend the DVD "Training a Competition Heeling Dog"

I begin this training with every dog (pets or rescue dogs with issues) with this training. It uses the treats to teach the dog to focus on you. It is play-based training, so very fun for you and the dog. The DVD starts with untrained handlers and untrained dogs, so you can see all the mistakes to avoid!

Thanks Anne! I took a quick look at the video you are suggesting with this DVD. And I’m interested! Will it also help with working towards their CGC? That has been my inspiration and motivation since I got my first pup Dakota.

I do like the way I feed them now because it assures me they are each getting the food they need. My food rewards usually consist of very small pieces of uncooked hotdogs, cheese, liver treats, and dog biscuits (I buy the ones for smaller dogs and break them in half). The dog biscuits I use mostly when they don’t jump up on people or furniture and when I had trouble getting them in their crates, which is not a problem anymore. They eat once a day and I feed them in the evening. So they always have an appetite during the day when I want to teach them something new or work on something they are having trouble with.

As I continue to work them in obedience and correct their undesirable behaviors, and they are getting older, I see improvements, it’s a little at a time, but we are all getting better at it. I notice that I can have their attention pretty well now when I work them together as long as it’s just them and me in the house. No distractions! When I’m working one, mild distractions they each do pretty well with. But we haven’t been able to move up in distractions in some time. The good thing is I am patient. And will take a step back. The only time I really screwed this up is if I didn’t understand exactly what’s going on, and when that happens I jump on the good old pc and start looking for answers. Sometimes it’s just trail and error, I’m just glad it doesn’t effect them, they seem to both have hard nerves, what I called “forgiving hearts” before I found this site.

But no one has really touched on the issues of my timid GSD. I know that’s not the main focus of this post but it would be appreciated. I do get him out and about on his own, as Barbra had suggested, helping him feel more comfortable and build his confidence, but I haven’t had any suggestions on handling him, correction wise. Any thoughts?

He hasn’t ever reacted to any situation aggressively, he is more of a whiner and pacer. I have known this since I got him, he was timid and have made the best attempts possible to socialize him in the neighborhood, that is full of people, kids, dogs walking with owners and barking in their yards, cats roaming and rabbits and squirrels every where. He hasn’t had any direct contact with other dogs since he was 6 months old, and only has direct interaction with friends of the family. I do tend to keep him a safe distance because I don’t want to release his fears into aggression. Knowing he wasn’t relying on me as his leader. He is also very fearful of the car, and we are on our 4th attempt to over come this, but this time much much slower.