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You use the hoops to -help show your dog where to physically be-.

I realized I was a bit vague here, so let me clarify. You use the hoops as the 'deciding factor' as to whether or not the dog gets to continue, just like a 2o/2o. The dog breaks the 2o, you stop practicing. Game over. The dog doesn't go through the hoop, you stop practicing. Again, game over. The dog learns that if he wants to continue, he's gotta do what you ask, and in this situation, it's go through the hoop. And yes, many fast dogs don't even realize the hoop is there after awhile. Once he 'gets the concept', he's going to be running full-speed ahead and he's going to touch down on the contact because he HAS to do that to make it through the hoop and keep playing the game! Once he's going that fast, the hoop could practically be on fire for all your dog cares: he's doing the behavior that earns him the right to continue, which is running at the bottom of the dogwalk at top speed, head down, not bailing off.

The dogs don't fixate on the hoop itself, they fixate on the behavior it teaches them.

KatherineOstiguy and the hoop training description is great. It show exactly the reason it does NOT work for most of us agility trainers with the crazy fast dogs. Because to really develop the muscle memory and consistancy needed, it also has to be trained TONS! And that continuous and consistant training is what many of us lack.

That said, for those that DO train, a running contact is amazing. (Did I mention it's not for me! <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have been trying the hoop method for months (the hoops are always there), but during the trial, my dog jumped over the contact point (both up and down) as she is charging in full speed. This caused me to lose the title. As long as there a one, it will be disqualified.

I agreed with Jenn's comment. Now, I have to restart a new method again. One "popular" methods, as some of you suggested is to place a "treat" on the contact point, and command the dog to "touch" in order to stop & look at the treat at the contact points. will I be ending to use 3 command just for one obstacle; "touch" - "up" then "touch" when coming down ? and will this method kill the drive of the dog speed ?Or did I get this method wrong ? Hope some of you can give me advise. My next trial is coming soon ...

I’ve been wondering about the “touch” thing as well. I see this a lot myself and I’ve been wondering what exactly you train for. If you tell the dog to “touch” at a contact what exactly is it touching? The ground? The contact? Both? And does “touch” apply to the front and/or back feet? Are you training a position? If you want the dog to “touch” going up and down wouldn’t those be two different things? Can you use the same command for two different things? Are most dogs capable of seeing the color difference in the contact zone? If they are, can this be used to train? Do the different hues of paint effect how the dog sees the contact zones if it can see them?

Stanley, the only thing that kills the drive of my fast dog is having him slow down. This is why I want to find a method where I can somehow teach him where he needs to be without having him stop. I can give him command after command after command and as long as he knows what to do (or at least thinks he does) his drive stays high. In a fast dog, the challenge would seem to be getting out 3 commands before the dog is over and past the obstacle. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"Touch" is frequently taught with target training. You train the dog away from the agility field to touch an object. For different things, you can teach your dog to hit a different item. For example, in contact training, you teach your dog to hit something flat and small that you can place on the contacts. The lid to a tub of margarine is perfect for this. The paper or metal cases those free AOL cd sample disks come in are perfect. I know Karen Pryor has a free targeting guide on her website. Some people teach the dogs to target to their hands, or to their feet, and that's used for other treats. So basically, you start by clicker training the dog to step on the target, and use the command "touch". (To answer one of your questions, Stacey, "touch" generally applies to the front paws. Dogs generally can maneuver better and 'think more' with their front paws. Some dogs seem to fail to release they even HAVE a hind end -- I have to do a lot of ground ladder work with new dogs in agility to teach them to think about their rears.)

After the dog has a grasp on the concept of 'to get a cookie from mom, I put my foot on this lid thing', put it in different situations. Put it on the floor in the kitchen. Put it on the stairs. Put it a few feet away from where the dog is sit-staying and tell him to go touch (TADA, the beginning of sending your dog!). Do it on different surfaces (grass, wood, tile, carpeting, concrete) and in different locations.

Start with the up contact. (A-frame and dog walk are easier at first only because they don't move, so you don't have to keep putting the god-damn target back on the obstacle each time the dog does it) Show the dog that you're placing the target on the yellow area. Tell the dog to target. When he does, click and treat. Pick up the target and move it to the end of the obstacle while your dog watches. (Alternatively, have several of whatever object you're using to target, and have one already at the end of the obstacle waiting.) Tell him to target, click and treat. Lather, rinse, repeat. Always put the target on (roughly) the same place on the obstacle so he is -looking for that location-. This is key.

After a lot of this, you being to 'fade' the target. Sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not. If you use a margarine lid, or the target I describe below, you can cut it down and make it gradually smaller and smaller so the dog is eventually targeting to something the size of a milk jug lid. Then take it away completely. When the dog hits that location, click and treat.

For those concerned that your dog will stop on that position and wait for the cookie, wait until the dog is OFF the obstacle to give the snack. Click on the target, give the cookie once he's got 'four on the floor'.

I make my own targets for the sole reason that I don't buy margarine in a tub. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I take a standard sheet of paper (you can use poster board if you'd like a wee bit more 'substance') and a roll of duct tape. The glory of duct tape is that you can get it in a billion colors, not just the standard silver. My first target was hot pink ("matches her leash" I usually tell people). Take a 8" strip of the duct tape and put it on the paper, smoothing out the kinks to the best of your ability. Take another strip and place it on the paper right up against the first piece. You essentially want to make a "patch" of duct tape on the paper. Don't worry about exact lengths or the ends being ragged. You probably want like 4 or 5 strips of duct tape on the paper in this method. Next, grab your scissors and cut into the 'patch', and cut it into a circle. Tada! A target. Using the paper as a back allows you to very easily make whatever shapes you want. (I once made my boyfriend a duct tape penguin on a duct tape covered journal using this method.) If the directions are unclear, let me know and I'll try to clarify.

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Stacey, to answer some more of your questions. Because dogs can differentiate shade, yellow contacts on a dark blue, or perhaps red, contact obstacle are easy to see. However, white and light blue obstacles are not only legal but are frequently seen and it's probably harder for them to see the difference between light blue and yellow.

The "touch", as I said before, is the dog touching an exact position they were taught to come to through target training. It's on the obstacle, not on the ground, and refers to the front paws.

You can definately use the same command because technically it's not two different things. The dog is looking for that teeny tiny little target and is hitting the spot where it almost always is on this particular part of this particular piece of equipment.

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I have been trying the hoop method for months (the hoops are always there), but during the trial, my dog jumped over the contact point (both up and down) as she is charging in full speed. This caused me to lose the title. As long as there a one, it will be disqualified.

May I suggest slightly smaller hoops? That might do the trick.

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Stanley, the only thing that kills the drive of my fast dog is having him slow down.

Only if stopping isn't fun! If you teach that THE RELEASE is such a blast, than the dog doesn't mind the stopping. So whether it's the release at the start line, or on the table, or on a contact, if the release is WHOOHOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!! then it's not demotivating at all!

I teach the 'ready, ready, ready, GO!' Game with the release being a long rousing game of tug initially (and then making the tugging less over time, and more intermittant). But it's a big game that they only win AFTER they have the 'wait' and the control.

I do NOT use the word 'stay' and find that PARTICULARLY for those dogs that do alot of 'strict' obedience (without the treats and tons of toys as rewards) that the word 'stay' can be a demotivator and bit STRESS that the dogs want to avoid. Particularly in the middle of a great fun run! So I use another word 'Wait' and it means a wonderful game and release!

This site explains it as:

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If you need help reving a dog up at the start line here's a trick/game from Pat Charlton and Stuart Mah. It's called "ready, set ,go!"

Start by racing your dog to a food tube or target container filled with treats. If he gets there first, HE gets the food. If you get there first, you pocket it. It only takes a few races before your dog will get the idea. If your dog isn't food motivated, this is a great "dinner" game.

Once your dog understands the game, play "ready-set-go" at the park and at the beach; sometimes racing to food, sometimes just racing for the fun of it. Playing this game with more than one dog is a hoot.

At the start of an agility run, gently hold your arm in front of your dog's chest and say "ready-set-GO!" This game has helped a great deal in getting some speed right from the start of the run. It also seems to reduce some of the stress the dog may feel to because it's a fun game you always play together...You can almost see your dog him smile when you say the magic words … READY, SET GO!
(Laura Forgetta)

And I don't want to post the ENTIRE thing (and annoy everyone) but This site does a great job at explaining the 2on/2off and how to train for it. I found it very important to use the clicker (much clearer and more concise for the dog) and to BACKCHAIN!!!! That way you first teach just the position and all the rewarding and JOYFUL releasing. And then only 'slowly' start moving further up the board to get the dogs to DRIVE to the position (for the JOYFUL release!). It's nice cause doing the contact equipment is NOT about the entire piece at all. For the dog it's ALL about getting up and tearing thru to the end. No 'slowwwwwwwwwwwww' no 'stay''''''''''''''' no babysitting or the dog having to rely on YOU for cues and your timing and your words to get then into position.

Because clicker training means we have to SHUT UP so the dog LEARNS to think and it only gets the reward when it does it right. They think. They learn. And they KNOW what their 'job' is. And when it's about the contact equipment from the second they get on, they should be dying to TEAR TO THE END TO GET INTO POSITION BECAUSE............ that's the way to get all the rewards and joy in the world. It doesn't matter if I'm ahead, or behind. And all I say when the dog gets up is 'target' and off they continue. I say it as they take the obstacle so I do NOT have to babysit at the end, I'm not saying anything except AFTER they are on it. Cause it's 'Ready, ready, ready, GO!!!!!!!!!!' And THAT'S what the drivy dogs want to do! GO!!

Thanks for all the advice.
Kath, my dog height is 20" (to shoulder) and the hoop I was using was 23". was it too big ?

for the target training, after tons of repeating training (since dogs are habitual animal) do you still give multiple commands eventually (even during trial); touch-up-touch or you slowly change it to just one single command ?

I have started the target training, my dog drive goes down a lot. She is now walking on the dogwalk/A-Frame instead of what she used to run.

Personally, I am not very comfortable with the target training. If I am away from the obstacle, will the dog touch the contact if the command is given ? I find that it is also difficult to position myself to the next obstacle as I have to be next to the obstacle to instruct the dog to touch and wait. However, if this is the only way to ensure my dog to touch on the contact points, I have no choice. & hopefully as good release as Jenn suggested will build up the feed again.

Stanley Yee, you need to read what I've been posting.

Your dog needs to understand the position INDEPENDENT of anything you are doing. You can be ahead, you can be behind, you can be away, you can be doing a front cross............ All that is 'your' job. The dog's job is to run to the end of the obstacle and wait 'in the position' until you release. TWO separate jobs, and YOU are responsible for one, THE DOG the other.

If your dog relying on you, waiting for you, cuing on you, and (this is the bad part) SLOWING DOWN. Your dog does NOT understand 'it's job'.

DO YOU CLICKER TRAIN! The clicker is the best aid, but if you refuse to use it because it's another skill for the handler to learn, you can still use the IDEA of 'clicker' training but use a specific and sharp word you ONLY use to train.

One of the best thing about the training is it TEACHES THE DOG TO THINK! Not to look to us. Not to wait for us. Not to be so worried about doing something 'wrong' they slow down or do nothing at all. Because it's about us SHUTTING UP (this is very hard for me, big mouth and all LOL). And letting the dog work it out. Setting them up to SUCCEED and do it right, not doing it 'wrong' and demotivating.

Clicker training really allows us to start with 'babysteps' in training with tons of fast and clear rewards (as fast as you can click and have the dog swallow the treat? like a machine gun? ) And only once they REALLY get it to you start testing with the waiting longer between clicks, you moving more, sending the dog, running past the dog, clicking and releasing TO THE TOY!!!!

Initially (for weeks) I just practice the 2on/2off on a board. I can lean it up on the sofa in the house and practice! I do NOT really use the 'target' on the floor as the goal. I get the dog up and around me so they are coming down the board and then I click/treat the MILLSEC their SECOND front foot hits the ground. So both back feet are on the board and both front feet on the floor. Then I click LIKE A MANIAC, (think machine gun!!!!!) and drop the treats on the floor right by their feet. This keeps their head down (better for spine fitness) and focuses them down.

I ONLY treat when they are 'in the position'. So if they spin off and around to get the treat, I lift them back on and hold them there while I drop the treat. I ALWAYS work on both sides of the dog. As soon as they 'get this' (you will see they start OFFERING the position when you just stand there cause you are NOT talking except to release them and initially lure them up and around, but when the 'get it' they will get on themselves) then you can slow down the rewarding like a machine gun and slow it down. And YOU can start moving around until you should be able to do jumping jacks and the dog won't budge until you use the release word. Around this time make sure you are 'releasing' to a toy or something so they really associate 'the position' to a new game with playing with mom/dad when they do it right.

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Thanks for all the advice.
Kath, my dog height is 20" (to shoulder) and the hoop I was using was 23". was it too big ?

Try a slightly smaller hoop. If you use 'padding' as I described before it will make it smaller without you having to cut your equipment or buy anything new. Get one of those pool noodles, cut a slit in it length-wise and pop it over the hoop. See how your dog does.

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for the target training, after tons of repeating training (since dogs are habitual animal) do you still give multiple commands eventually (even during trial); touch-up-touch or you slowly change it to just one single command ?

I use the obstacle names to get my dog to focus on what's next -- teeter, a-frame, dog walk.
My dog is very consistent on contacts and I usually do not need to "warn" her by saying 'touch'. However if she's going exceptionally fast I will say 'touch' as she nears the bottom to help ensure that she hits it.
With a green dog or one who needs more reminding, it would be:
1. Obstacle name, so the dog knows what's coming: a-frame, teeter, or dog-walk
2. 'Touch' for the up contact
3. 'Touch' for the down contact
In between the commands you might use motivational or directional commands. If my dog is starting to 'zone out' on me before she actually gets to the obstacle, I might call her in closer to me by saying 'here', for example.

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I have started the target training, my dog drive goes down a lot. She is now walking on the dogwalk/A-Frame instead of what she used to run.

Your dog may not think target training is 'fun'. So make it fun! Big cookies and cheers when your dog hits the target. RACE your dog to the end of the obstacle. Cheer him or her on.

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Personally, I am not very comfortable with the target training. If I am away from the obstacle, will the dog touch the contact if the command is given ? I find that it is also difficult to position myself to the next obstacle as I have to be next to the obstacle to instruct the dog to touch and wait.

Yes, he should. The dog's position should be COMPLETELY INDEPENDANT from yours. I can set a dog walk up in the middle of a training hall and I could be ANYWHERE in the room and my dog would hit both contacts. I could probably hang from the ceiling and she'd hit it. She knows what her 'job' is on this obstacle and does it.

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However, if this is the only way to ensure my dog to touch on the contact points, I have no choice. & hopefully as good release as Jenn suggested will build up the feed again.

For now, your dog may need you to 'babysit' him at the contacts. With time and more confidence, and slowly working up to distances, this will change.