Re: PPD socialization?
[Re: Jenn Kavanaugh ]
#121325 - 12/17/2006 07:12 PM |
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And I want to make clear, I also don't want my dogs to LOVE all people. What I do want is for them to be confident and secure around them. And proper socialization of puppies makes sure I don't unintentionally end up with an adult that's reacting from a 'fear' basis. I have no problem with a dog that's adult not being allowed to be around/near other people. Those dogs are thru the 'socialization' window and already are the solid dog (or not) they were raised to be. Ok, enough about me.
Here's a site from REAL PPD person, so you don't have to listen to me ramble (Will, you can start reading now).
My Dog is Too Friendly (per PPD trainer)
TRAINING: PROTECTION DOGS
Maybe more can be posted by the PPD people that have the info saved in their Favorites.
Intelligent dogs rarely want to please people whom they do not respect --- W.R. Koehler |
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Re: PPD socialization?
[Re: Jenn Kavanaugh ]
#121328 - 12/17/2006 07:51 PM |
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Geez Will, I should have just done a better search here on leerburg, sorry.
Questions & Answers on Protection I recommend that you get him out for as many walks as possible. Take him to places where there are a lot of people. Bring along some cheap hot dogs (cut into very small pieces). See if he will take pieces of hot dogs from strangers.
and
People become confused about personal protection dogs. They feel that they should always be very aggressive dogs. This is not the case. A good personal protection dog has good nerves. He learns to accept people but react to a give set of circumstances. This can be a command from the owner or an action from a another person. The perfect example of this is my police dog. He is very very tough. He has bitten a number of bad guys while working - but he is very good with people. Strangers can come into our office, UPS delivery people can come in un-announced. He will simply go up and meet them. He is excellent with children. This dog has been trained that there is a time to work and protect me or to make an apprehension when I send him after someone. He also knows that there is a time to live a normal happy life. His nerves are good and he enjoys both areas, he is actually a very happy fun dog.
and
QUESTION:
I have a one year old GSD. He has been obedience trained and is very obedient. My problem is that he is a little too friendly. I cannot tell you how many times I have walked outside or come out of a convenience store only to see groups of strangers by my fence or around my truck petting my dog. I do not want him to be "mean," but it would be nice if he would not make friends so easily. I know that protection training is the best answer, but I don't have several hundred dollars to spend. Do you have any suggestions?
ANSWER:
This is a very common question. The answer is that at one year of age we want our dogs to be friendly. A one year old dog that is quick to bark at people probably has a bit of a temperament problem. I call dog that are quick to bark - "sharp dogs." These are dogs whose nerves are a little thin. They bark in a defensive manner because they are nervous of something they are faced with. Most dogs that are quick to bark at one year are not barking out of strength but out of nervousness. A dog does not develop a strong defensive drive until it starts to mature which is around 18 months of age.
and Ed agrees with the NOT petting in this question BUT only when you know your dog has no issues with people. For someone who really knows dogs, this may be easy with a young pup, but I know that pups change and go thru a bunch of socialization and fear stages in the first year (all pups, not just PPD puppies) so this may be harder to judge and NOT benefit the puppy if you do guess wrong. Click here
QUESTION:
Ed,
I am raising my puppy to be a protection dog. I heard that you should keep people from petting your dog when you go out in public. My puppy is 10 weeks old and whenever I go out in public everyone wants to come up and pet him and say awh, he's so cute. Should I keep people from petting him? What should I say to these people? What should I do with the pup?
Charles Preasha
ANSWER:
Puppies that are being raised as personal protection dogs need to be socialized a lot. This means they need to experience as many differant things as possible. This means you take your dog to differant places all the time. Try and think of places where the dog will be a little stressed but not to the point of avoidance. Doing this two or three times a week pays off in spades.
Owners can take puppies around people but if the pup has good nerves they should not allow people to pet them. We want the dog to look at the handler as the only person in his universe. I dont ever let people pet my dogs - except if a pup is a little sharp. In that case I will ask people to toss him a piece of meat or a treat. In rare situations I will let them pat the dog to show him there is nothing to fear. But the minute I see that the dog is no longer concerned with strangers this stops.
It's important that this concept is clear. If the dog has good nerves then no one touches the dog, if the pup is quick to bark at people then I allow human socialization until humans are not an issue and then the socialization stops.
The people that told you to keep the dog away from people do not understand dog training. My advise is to stay away from them for future information.
To keep a dog away from everyone is only going to produce an unstable dog, a dog that is unsure of himself and as an adult may be a dog that is dangerous to have around. The goal of protection training is to produce a dog that will protect the handler when the handler is being threatened. A dog that has had little human contact is going to either be shy of people or worse (with training) be very aggressive to everyone. Of course we could consider a dog that wants to kill everything and everyone a person protection dog but that is kind of like a body guard going out and shooting everyone that comes near the person he is trying to protect.
Intelligent dogs rarely want to please people whom they do not respect --- W.R. Koehler |
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Re: PPD socialization?
[Re: Jenn Kavanaugh ]
#121329 - 12/17/2006 08:13 PM |
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Unfortunately Jenn, you in *no* way answered the question that I asked of you - has the way that you train made for a better PPD or a dog competing in reality-based protection dog sports that you have personally trained?
And from reading that fellow's site, I really doubt that he's a PPD trainer. If you click on his "Training: Protection Dogs" link, you're referred to Armin Winkler to get a protection dog.
< shrug >
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Re: PPD socialization?
[Re: Will Rambeau ]
#121343 - 12/18/2006 06:55 AM |
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Hey Will, sure do miss these little spars when I've been away for awhile. And the question was not about 'training' an adult PPD dog, you are absolutely 100% correct/on target that I still do not choose that training venue for my dogs.
But the question was not about training an adult PPD dog, it was more general. It was a 'socialization' question. And everything I've read about PPD dogs is the same as for most of our 'working' dogs. And that's to have a thinking CONFIDENT adult dog that does well in training, we need properly expose our puppies to get them that way.
And that IS the issue I was addressing and that I DO know alot about. Raising a confident and thinking puppy that will be able to be trained for whatever I choose.
It's unfortunate you have not answered, or helped the original poster at all, and I don't know where the heck everyone else is also. And I can't believe there aren't more website available with help that could be posted.
From This site: I have learned that to be truly successful, I must select a self right dog. I define the "self right dog" as a dog with the attitude that any ground he stands on is his turf; and although he is willing to be friendly, he will defend his turf if challenged.
This attitude exudes confidence and lacks fear; it allows the dog to mentally focus on the task at hand. I am going to address the subject of juvenile dogs and specifically the question: "How do we produce a self right dog ready for police dog training?"
My focus will be on temperament preservation and what we can do to enhance it. I will address genetics with one comment: Without good genetics, what I discuss here will not work. All I speak of here is predicated upon the hypothesis that the dogs we choose to work are predisposed to good health and a self right temperament.
I truly have tried to search and find as much about this on the web that I could. Since I am OPEN MINDED and WILLING TO LEARN and absolutely realize that the training for an adult PPD dog isn't the same as getting a Championship in Agility on a dog, I'd love to read more, learn more, and be directed to other sites that aren't 'nasty' or 'superior' to state no one could possibly understand unless they have raised/trained/many PPD dogs. 'Socialization', of puppies, seems to be a broader topic that ALL our dogs come under.
Intelligent dogs rarely want to please people whom they do not respect --- W.R. Koehler |
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Guest1 wrote 12/18/2006 08:18 AM
Re: PPD socialization?
[Re: Jenn Kavanaugh ]
#121345 - 12/18/2006 08:18 AM |
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Jenn,
I've been mulling whether or not Will's question is an implicit strawman argument, or if it's germaine to the discussion. I've concluded that it's both. On one hand, either your information is valid, or it's not, and it shouldn't matter who the messenger is. On the other hand, dog rearing isn't math. A solution can't be worked out on paper neccesarily.
In light of how much you write on the subject, I think it is fair to answer Will's question. From a purely abstract perspective, it's not a logically relevant question, but in a bottom-line, practical sense it really is. If his inquiry was too convoluted or loaded, I'll rephrase:
1. Have you raised a puppy into a PPD?
2. If so, how many?
3. How many times and under what circumstances has it (or they) bitten humans under PP circumstances as explicity trained? (i.e. has the bottom line objectively been met?)
I've been going about socializing my puppy in a pretty much identical fashion as you describe. It sounds like we've read the same resources and have very much the same rationale for doing what we're doing; but I'd be the first to say that if I were to dispense advice it'd be parroting other authorities without a complete personal understanding.
I believe an answer to Will's question would, in fact, help the original poster, and that was his intent.
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Re: PPD socialization?
[Re: Jenn Kavanaugh ]
#121347 - 12/18/2006 08:53 AM |
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Jenn:
quote:
"But the question was not about training an adult PPD dog, it was more general. It was a 'socialization' question"
Funny, it was posted in the PPD section and the original poster mentioned that his end goal was PSA ( a reality-based protection sport. Hence my questions of you ).
And as you've chosen to answer a question where a poster is looking for a specific outcome in temperament for a dog in a forum devoted to a field that you haven't partiipated in, I was wondering what you were basing your answer on - direct experience, or just what you've read from other people.
I wasn't looking to spar, I wasn't pointing a finger and at no time did I say that you were wrong ( except for your first link to the "real PPD trainer" ) I was just looking for an answer there.
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Re: PPD socialization?
[Re: Will Rambeau ]
#121363 - 12/18/2006 12:00 PM |
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Steve, I honestly believe that dogs don't like to be pet. I also believe people would treat their dog's differently if they didn't have fur. Anyway, IMO, putting your hands on a dog is a dominant behavior. Therefore, only you, the handler, should have that right. I think relationships toward strangers should remain neutral.
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Re: PPD socialization?
[Re: Will Rambeau ]
#121365 - 12/18/2006 12:10 PM |
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Thanks everyone for your answers.
Jenn,
The quotes are very helpfull thanks.
I would have to conclude that my dog is a little sharp as
some would say. Barks at people that are very far away and sometimes I have no idea what she is barking at. Hackles up only in a blue moon. Up close she is very freindly and shows no fear. I noticed the last couple of days she also looses interest in strangers a lot faster then she used to. She will jump on them
get a pett and then just walk away from them. I think cause she is a little sharp I will let people pet her when they ask for a few more months.
Thanks STEVE
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Re: PPD socialization?
[Re: Jenn Kavanaugh ]
#121367 - 12/18/2006 12:25 PM |
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You can socialize your pup all you want, but has an adult that is your choice.For us we do not want any one to pet our dog, our dog has solid nerves would not bite out of fear , he can be in a crowd of people and not care.We CHOOSE not to have anyone pet him in our house or the car.
And I know that a PPD should be ok in any situation, rather it's being petted in a crowd or one stranger petting him ect...That is what a confident dog should be able to do.
>for us it's a matter of choice , we just don't want anyone petting him.Could you,if you walked up to him while he is on a leash and we're talking? Yes but I don't want you too.
A personal choice.
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Re: PPD socialization?
[Re: Angelique Cadogan ]
#121376 - 12/18/2006 02:13 PM |
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I have a 4 year female GSD, that is a trained PPD. Our dog is fully socialized and I let anybody pet her from toddlers to adults. She is extremely clear headed. We continue to train her every month in different scenarios and bite work.
On the other hand, I have another 2 year old female GSD who is also protection trained. I would not let anybody pet her, nor does she want to be petted. She is on the sharp side. This dog seems to put out bad vibes, nobody ever asks to pet her.
It all boils down to your dog's temperament. There is no one answer. Every dog is different.
YMMV.
John
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