Kevin,

Maybe a better place to have asked your question would have been on another part of the board - Protection Breeds of Dogs. There are two areas dedicated to DDR and Czech line GSD's.

BTW, I have one female who is 100% Czech and another female who has Czech and DDR Lines. Both are completely different dogs. My Czech line is way more social and my Czech/DDR female is much sharper and more protective.

From reading this thread I would have to assume that a lot depends on the lines of each. Out where I live, it is the czech dogs that have a reputation for being more sharp/protective (generally speaking) and not a lot of prey drive. DDR lines out here do seem to also be less 'prey' driven, and I would use the words 'higher suspision' vs sharp. That is not a bad thing as long as the dog also have high confidence.

I have bred to 2 males producing 2 litters with the same female. She is from old herding HGH lines, mixed with a bit of german show and working lines. First sire was working/DDR lines. VERY nice litter. 2 bomb dogs, 1 assistance dog (for someone who is deaf), SchH dog, FANTASTIC herding dog (I kept him), and then family companions. All dogs are VERY social, have good nerves, are not highly suspicous, great drives (balanced) and great noses. Now the dam is VERY social (she has 3 brothers that are bomb dogs), great drives, solid nerves and fantastic hunt drive. Her second litter is out of a pure DDR male. This litter is only 8 months old. Still got very social dogs but some with higher suspision, very confident, great drives, great noses, hunt drive.

A daughter from the first litter has just been bred to a Czech male...so it will be interesting to see what they produce.

I have heard that both the czech and DDR lines can produce 'softer' dogs, although I did not experience this at all. I personally like them combined with the working lines to balance things out. I have also heard over and over that DDR females take longer to mature vs the males. This was true in my first litter, but so far in the second litter I have not experienced that.

John H-got a teeny tiny bone to pick about the DDR moniker...although most of what you said is exactly true;-). IF your dog has very old lines, with lots of years between generations...it is entirely possible to have DDR reg'd dogs closer than the 3rd generation. For example...my precious angel(LOL). I deliberately chose him b/c his lines had up to twelve years between generations, which I liked for health reasons. (Hard to tell much about longterm health w/a 2yr old sire, but I digress). So...on that, I disagree. 99% of the time, you'd be right on, but don't say it's not possible, or that "at best" 3rd generation...yeah, yeah, it's semantics, I know. 18 yrs since the wall came down...that's 2 generations at 9 yrs apart...perfectly possible;-).

You're 100% right about breeders using the term DDR to boost sales, often with dogs that may only have 1-2 DDR reg'd dogs in their entire pedigree...5-7 gen back. If the lines are close enough that they'll have an effect on traits you can reasonably expect...fine. Call them DDR. Otherwise, call them GSDs.

On difference in traits between Czech and DDRs, my response is going to be quite similar to the others'; anecdotally speaking, the Czech dogs I have interacted with for any period of time have been much more social than my primarily DDR dog, or the others I've met. My male is just 3, and went through some squirrely stages of sharpness/fear/aggression/whatever the term of the day is. At 3, he's 100% better than I ever thought he'd be, based on his behavior at 1-2yrs. He has never had any interest in human interaction (except me), will avoid it if possible, then get a little nasty if the issue is pressed (men only, children are tolerated).

I can't help but think there's more than coincidence coming into play here, since so many express similar findings, however anecdotal. Right now, I have my male and his 18mo old nephew at my house. They're uncle and nephew on the sire's side, and cousins on the dam's. The nephew, Apollo, is about 3/4 Czech...1/4 DDR. My dog, Caleb, is the opposite, at about 3/4 DDR and 1/4Czech/Slovak. These two are everything everyone has just said impersonated...(er imdogated?)

Apollo is very handler soft, social, sweet, loving...and prey/play driven. Submissive personality. Bites great during play bitework, but isn't very defensive. Has an aggressive side that becomes more prevalent as he matures. His fuse is gettign shorter as he gets older, though, I've noticed. He used to tuck his tail and walk away from a confrontation; now, he fights back, although it's defense. He does not start fights. He did not used to handle stress very well, but is getting much better.

Caleb, OTOH, was an a$$ at that same age. No correction meant anything to him, would sooner die than admit that a correction was felt, and used to take full minutes to platz, with me standing on the leash right next to his head. Thankfully that stage was outgrown, as he never got away with that sh... He was never handler aggressive, however...just hard. (I think it had to do with the fact that he knew even my hardest physical correction wasn't really going to be a threat to his well-being, b/c he was not quite as difficult w/a male trainer, although he did resist him as well.) Won't bite much in prey, unless he's just goofing around with me. Bites in defense (although he had higher thresholds at a younger age), bites to defend territory (which is anything he feels is his), irritatingly dominant, engages in staring contests (with males in particular). For months, I had to ask male guests not to look at him AT ALL. He has lost some sharpness, and give more "benefit of the doubt" lately, although is very watchful and suspicious still. Still has zero use for any human interaction outside of me. Ignores people and other dogs unless specifically told to allow petting (kids only).

He has settled down considerably lately, and I think it's a combination of things I've done with him, coupled with maturity and confidence that come with age. He's less likely to start a fight, but more likely to finish one. He used to be kind of sharp, but didn't have much to back it up, or so it seemed. We'll never know for sure, as I don't believe it's easy to test how a dog will act in a "real" situation, since any devised scenario is not real by defintion. I believe dogs know the difference. I have seen a few encouraging things lately that give me hope that he might bite for real, but I also know not to count on him.

Apollo has become protective of his handler (my cousin), although it's a side of him rarely seen, and often not believed to exist by those who haven't witnessed it. I admit that it surprised me, and I've spent considerable time with him (he lived with me for several months). I think we'll see more as he matures and his confidence increases.

In summary, I guess I think that both lines are slow to mature, and that the Czech lines are more "innocent until proven guilty" and social, and the DDRs are more "guilty until proven innocent" and aloof. That's just my experience based on a handful of dogs that I've worked myself or lived with. I'm not a breeder, a formal trainer, a behaviorist, or a geneticist. My opinion is strictly from personal observation, but I felt like sharing it b/c it so closely matched others' experiences. We all know that training and environment play a huge role; let's assume equal upbringing on these comparisons, b/c IMO, these conversations are fun and interesting, if not based on fact;-)

EDITED TO SAY: Sorry for the epic; I didn't see Shelley's post, and I apologize for redundancy .

Yuko, eek. Looks like I'll be writing another book, lol.

I'm gonna go backwards and say that my DDR is no fun to do sports with. If he had a motto it would be "I do not play games," spoken in a very even tone that leaves no room for debate. I'd have to say the Czech would be a better competition dog, hands down. I like my DDR for a deterrance/protection. Nothing gets by him, and as a small, single female, I like his watchfulness and suspicion. He doesn't sleep and misses nothing. He also does not cuddle up to people, which is nice, in case a would-be attacker would be someone I knew. No chance of him having an issue biting them b/c he "knew" them. Not saying he'd bite for sure, just saying "liking" the person wouldn't deter him or confuse him. I've been dating someone for 8mos, and he is not comfortable w/Caleb by any means. He is now permitted to enter my house alone, but Caleb follows him very closely until I've acknowleged his presence. It makes him more than a little nervous, which is fun on a really childish level, lol.

Apollo likes everyone, but can turn really fast, which can be scary in itself. He's quite stable, but has quick reaction times, so you need to be aware of where his attention is focused at all times. Since you seem to like description, I'll give this example: my cousin was play-fighting w/her boyfriend. She happened to glance over her shoulder at Apollo, who was crouching, teeth bared, ready to take out her boyfriend when he had a clean shot. She stopped immediately and told him "It's ok, I see it," which is their chill-out command, and he was fine. Hackles down, walked over with tail wagging. She realized she needed to pay closer attention to what he was thinking before he did the thinking himself and we had a problem.

I guess it all depends on your perspective. Apollo (CZ)is more of a "sleeper," meaning he'll surprise you w/aggression, and Caleb(DDR) is more of a deterrant b/c he doesn't pretend to be friendly. Caleb went through some oddball stages, and I don't really care at this point what they were, b/c they're not an issue anymore.

Sounds like your dog may be faster to mature than mine, if he's better at nine months. My problems were just beginning at that age. I'd hold out hope since he's "ignoring" people; the really fearful, aggressive dogs I've seen do that about everyone, and ignoring is not in their vocabulary. Caleb did that to a point at about 1yr, but outgrew it and focused on ignoring instead, as long as the people ignored him. He still does not like extended staring or pointing, which he gets quite a bit b/c he's a handsome boy;-). He used to get crabby a/b it; now he ignores it unless someone (male) is staring/pointing/advancing toward him or me in anything but a laid-back manner. He used to be obnoxious, but now he just stands up quietly and stares back. I can live with this.

Re: the relations b/t the 2 dogs, I used these 2 b/c their Cz lines are the same CZ lines (mostly) and their DDR lines are the same, although Apollo is way more Cz, and Caleb is way more DDR.

I tend to ramble, so my advice would be to do a search in the DDR forum and get Ed's perspective on them and why they're not in his breeding program. Personally, I love 'em, but what he said about the line that my dog is from is dead on. He described them as "rank drive assholes" (Don Rolandsteich males) and I wanted to defend them; I really did. But I can't.

"rank drive assholes"

LOL! Gotta love Ed's colourful, to-the-point comments

(um, what does that mean exactly? that the dog is constantly dominant? please excuse my ignorance)

Thank you for your book (haha); I love those kinds of descriptions because it gives me a better idea of what to expect from the different dogs. I'm hoping to educate myself enough over the next few years to be able to make a good choice for my next shepherd.

I really don't need a protection dog, certainly not an overly sharp and aggressive one, and am more interested in having fun and doing high level obedience/sport with a dog (strong nerves please!! dealing with these "oddball" fear/aggression issues as you put it is a little annoying). I really appreciate your honesty about your dogs - it definitely seems like the Czech dogs would be a better choice for me.
The downside of a lot of the real German working dogs is the super dominance and hardness the breeders seem to look for. I prefer a softer dog that doesn't require regular level 10 prong corrections or constant "hanging".
Looking at what you wrote, it seems that you find that annoying as well, even though you have no trouble dealing with it...

I remember Ed writing at some point that he did not like the "softness" of most DDR lines. But as long as the dogs have great drives and nerves, does it really matter if the dog is sensitive and soft if all one wants is a competition/sport dog?
Maybe I'll ask him about it - I just worry about bothering such a busy man with my newbie questions, lol.

The problem is finding a good source to trust for honest information; DDR breeders (and many owners) all claim their dogs are the best, and this seems to apply to pretty much every line of dogs (people who love them and people who hate them).

Hearing from actual dog owners who are willing to point our their dogs' flaws is the most helpful

Wow, your DDR male sounds just like mine (for the fear behaviour, I mean, I'm sure your male is a far superior working dog!)
My puppy never seemed concerned about "situations" (walking through crowds, loud noises, in proximity to a lot of dogs, traveling by plane etc.). I often did obedience training in a busy airport and he could care less about people walking around him, even very close with luggage etc., as long as they didn't try to touch him. It was supposed to be distraction training, but so far I'm having a very hard time finding situations that my pup finds distracting!!

He started having issues with "direct" confrontations, or what he viewed as confrontations, when people walked up to him, bent over him and tried to pet him on the head.

I was worried that I'd have to deal with a potential fear biter for the rest of his life, but recently he's been getting much more stable when confronted (i.e being leaned over, pointed at, reached at...).

Now, if people insist on meeting my pup, I ask them to simply stand still and hold their hand out, and my pup will happily go up and give them a quick sniff. That's enough for him, and he will move away if the person advances towards him, but he doesn't do the barking/hackles anymore. Occasionally he still does that when someone (mostly tall men with hats or umbrellas, lol) comes towards me, but will immediately stop and calm down on command.

Sounds like your DDR male is going through the same phases.

I wonder if any other DDR or Czech shepherd owners can share their experiences?

(and thanks for all the explaining Jenni, you're very helpful )

One thing jumped out at me, and that was the "being leaned over." This is a dominant position, and one that can get someone bitten if they do it to the wrong dog. Not liking that does not mean your dog will be a fear biter.

Also, your description of your dog under distraction does not make me think he'd be a fear-biter. My snotty male is awesome under distraction or stress, probably b/c he doesn't care, but anyway, it's possible to have aloofness w/out being a fear-biter. I get kinda sick of everyone jumping on that bandwagon; I don't think there are as many true fear-biters out there as there are dogs whose handlers don't know how to introduce/desensitize them to situations. JMO. I've been wrong before...

John,
If you're going to directly criticize a forum poster for trying to educate someone regarding internet etiquette, please do so via PM.

And to everyone, if this is going to start flaming, I'm just going to close the thread. Plain and simple.
Behave or begone.

Will Rambeau
Moderator

 Quote: John Aiton

Don't be so shallow Mitch! If you can't answer the question being asked or provide some reasonable input then don't post!

Mitch,

I'd like to apologise for this comment, as re-reading it (after Will's comments) it did not come out as intended. I didn't mean it to sound so cheeky, not my style.

Also I should have taken my own advice :-)

Cheers

John

am new to this forum and find it and all of the posts informantive and the people here incredibly nice.. my question is this.. if you were looking for the sweetest gsd.. which would you breed to.. in the working lines.. that is.. and by sweet .. i mean i take my dog everywhere..and dont really want a dog that is wary of strangers.. rather one that is accepting.. i guessi am looking for a pet 1st and schutzund. second..any thoughts.?

thanks