One more thing - I'm in complete agreement w/the vaccinations being scary and dangerous. I've heard many (4) stories of dogs who were perfectly fine one day and dead the next due to what the owner felt w/no question was due to their dog getting vaccinated . So, they scare the heck out of me too .

Oops, sorry for not being clear Judy

I didn't mean if he bit someone, I meant if there was a rabies outbreak in the city. That was the original concern; the vet scared me by saying that in such an event, the city could seize and destroy my dog (even though he'd be no more likely to have contracted rabies than me!!).


Dennis, jeez, wonder what Ed or Cindy would have to say about that. I seem to recall that they no longer vaccinate their puppies or breeding stock, and that they ask their puppy-buyers to follow that philosophy as much as possible...

Then again, I'm sure you have far more experience than them anyway. We should just all listen to you, right? Lol.

I don't get this whole obsession with checking a PET DOG's vaccination status for rabies. My dog is always with me when outdoors, everywhere I go, he goes. He's no more likely to get rabies than I am!

I'm surprised that the laws are even allowing us humans to walk around without rabbies vaccines.

Don't get sucked into this veterinarian propaganda system of believing that non-vaccinated dogs are automatically at high risk. Feral dogs, maybe, pet dogs? Answer for yourself.

If a human bit you, would you freak out and demand their vaccination status?? How about if they went hiking a lot and lived in a rabies-infested area? They'd be far more likely to be rabid than my dogs.

You should know, rabies is not only transmitted through blood, it's also transmitted through mucous membranes.

Do you request a proof of rabies vaccine every single time before kissing someone on the mouth?

Maybe you should, considering your current opinions on risks of transmission

It'd be nice if people would take the time to think, and maybe learn a few basics about immunity before making these all-knowing statements...

Oh Dennis, my dogs are on worm preventative medication during heartworm season. They're protected against fleas, heartworms, roundworms, whipworms, hookworms.

Jeez... you're far more likely to be passing around fleas and worms than my dog! Maybe I should start requesting health records for anyone approaching my dog

Great explanation on how a titer works. You probably saved me alot of money having that done.

I try to bath at least once a week but its been cold.

Again, at a club where accidents can happen and the dogs are sharing equipment and the the field I would insist the same way I would insist that your children are UTD on thier vacs before attending school with mine

Thanks Michael, glad I could help.

Dennis, if you believe that vaccines are the end-all 100% reliable solution to prevent your children from contracting the vaccinated-against diseases, why would you care whether or not my unvaccinated children are around yours? Aren't yours protected? Wasn't that the whole point of the vaccines?

Sorry, just doesn't make sense.

By the way, for those people who clearly have no knowlege on how immunity works, I'd recommend viewing the documentary video that Cindy posted at the top of this thread.

Not saying that you can learn everything you need from one documentary, but the whole thing is very intelligently built and researched and based on FACTS and EVIDENCE, not opinions, (using quality scientific studies published in quality journals). It will certainly give you a good idea of where you're mistaken and you can continue your research from there.

I've only have 4 years worth of courses of undergraduate-level training in immunology and microbiology, so of course I still have a whole lot to learn as well as many questions/uncertainty myself, but I know enough about the basics in terms of immune function to see WHY we should be concerned and skeptical of these vaccine claims and beliefs.

And I can, with my level of knowlege only, point out the incredibly ridiculous flaws and discrepancies in the views that are fed to parents and pet owners about vaccines

Believe me, once you educate yourself (if you don't care about yourself, at least do it for your children or your dogs!), you won't be under the spell of all these fear tactics anymore!

Are vaccines risky? YES YES YES!
Are vaccines effective? It depends on the vaccine; some are, some aren't.
Are they worth it? Again, it depends...

No one line answers here...

(Dennis, I respect you and your dog-training knowlege, but it's obvious that you're arguing here about something you know nothing about. Please educate yourself on the subject first so that we can at least have a productive debate on the matter if you want to continue this!
How would you feel if I, with 0 experience, started telling police k9 trainers how wrong they are in their training methods and gave all-knowing advice to them based on "but it's a well-held belief in society"?

...exactly my point! )

Maybe its because I've been to some third world S***holes and seen children suffering/dieing from diseases our children are routinely vaccinated against. I believe slamming puppies with all the required Vacs in one day is wrong that's why I spread them out. I got slammed with at least eight Vacs in one week during Basic Training, I was ninteen and healthy at the time, thought I was going to die, I can't imagine doing that to a puppy. cost more but with my four GSDs I havn't had a single problem.

Watch the documentary.

You're wrong on this; the third-world children are not dying from these diseases because of lack of vaccines, they're dying because their health is badly compromised. They're malnourished, weak and extremely susceptible to any and every passing illness.

Here's an interesting fact; travellers from North America going to Central and South America are advised to get Hepatitis A vaccines (amongst others) because it's highly prevalent there.
The reason we're at risk, coming from industrialized countries, is that we haven't been exposed to the virus as children (good sewage systems and sanitation practices).

I don't remember the exact figure on this, but something like over 90% of Central American children, by the time they reach their teens, are immune against Hepatitis A without ever having been vaccinated.

They were all exposed as infants and young children growing up, and those who are reasonably healthy (not severely malnourished or stunted in development) get mildly sick when young, but get over it very easily.
By the time they reach adulthood (when contracting Hepatitis A could do real damage), they're completely resistant to the virus!

Unless 1) the virus in question is extremely dangerous and lethal and 2) the disease is highly prevalent and there is a great risk of contracting it, it's stupid and dangerous to vaccinate against it.

By vaccinating children or puppies against diseases that they can easily fight off with good health, you're weakening their immune systems (these early exposures are needed to build up a healthy immune system).

You should know that a healthy immune system does a whole lot more than killing viruses and bacteria. Your immune system is what keeps cancer cells in check and prevents them from taking over. Your immune system repairs damaged cells and DNA, helping you not only fight off cancer, but also keeps your brain cells from deteriorating quickly with age.

As if that's not bad enough, you're injecting these children with EXTREMELY toxic substances at the same time.

The video that Cindy posted shows a man who asked the vaccine company why such dangerous toxins as aluminium and mercury derivatives are used in the vaccine.

He didn't get an answer. Well, the answer is that injecting an antigen alone via a vaccine will not trigger an immune response. Our immune systems are bombarded with countless bacteria and viruses every day and will ignore anything that it considers dead or inactive.

Thus, a dead or inactivated virus, or some viral capsid protein used in a vaccine will not "work". (Vaccines don't necessarily inject the virus into you; sometimes it's just some viral surface proteins, sometimes it's just bits of DNA etc.)

This is where the toxins come in. In order to ensure that the vaccine "takes", toxins such as aluminium are included as adjuvents along with the viral components. This irritates the immune system enough to cause it to react to the antigens.

By the way, NO AMOUNT of formaldehyde, aluminium or mercury derivatives are considered safe. Mercury is a highly potent neurotoxin and even exceedingly small doses of it are likely to cause severe neurological defects in a developing foetus.

Larger doses (like those found in vaccines) are enough to cause significant damage to an adult human in unknown doses.

Still think it's worth it? For something as benign as mumps or measles? Keep in mind that by not exposing children to these diseases, you're weakening their immune systems and making them MORE LIKELY to get sick from other diseases.


There are instances where vaccines are necessary and even life-saving. If you get bitten by a rabid animal and the rabies virus actually gets into your system, then yes, your ONLY means of surviving the illness is by immediate treatment including vaccines.

The rabies vaccine is effective. Many others aren't. You'd be surprised how many vaccines aren't even TESTED for effectiveness before being "deployed" on hundreds of millions of people.

Again, watch the documentary. I'm tired of repeating myself to someone who doesn't understand the very basics in immunology.

It's like trying to argue that the earth is round to someone who thinks that's heresy

Whew, I'm exhausted...


I need a cookie or something http://www.leerburg.com/forums/images/icons/default/tired.gif http://www.leerburg.com/forums/images/icons/default/tired.gif

Lol, I blame it on you Dennis (and Judy )... you got me started on this whole thing.

I hope someone else can take over with the explaining, I'm going to bed.

So the beer I drank from Aluminium cans preserved with formaldehyde while eating a tuna sandwiches has turned me into a twitching idiot. Thank you but I'll keep following my good Doctor's advice, you know, that nice lady who has EIGHT to TEN years of formal education on medicine as oppsosed to some documentary or stuff lifted from the net. In short, come to my club, have you dog UTD on health department required Vacs or stay home. Same for your child attending school with mine.