I think it is important for your kids_ all of your kids- to help do obedience commands (*train)with your new dog. That is how a dog will gain respect and a liking for them. They kids will also learn how to control the dog.
They need to spend time with the dog, but also work with the dog. (*train- meaning doing commands the dog already has mastered & with your supervision-, so you can ensure the dog obeys them and they are doing it the right way. Kids should not teach new commands or behaviors {unless they have been taught the right way})

I don't understand why a 15 year old girl can't be a dogs pack leader. From what I read, this girl seems to be pretty mature. She dealt with a divorce and her father re-maried and she lives with him and her stepmom. Not sure if your parents are divorced, Judy, or if you are for that matter, but you mature a lot when you have to deal with the stuff this girl has dealt with. And I don't understand the head to head thing about teenagers. You mean handling a dog? I hope you don't think I'm picking on you

One of the first things Ed recommends is that you don't let others pet your puppy, and he specifically mention other family members. Granted he means for adults to handle dogs, but like I said, this girl seems to be pretty mature and able to deal with her dog.

What do you mean by the dog never listening to her? Does he know sit, for example, and not sit if she asks him to? Does he know come, as in he was taught 'come' with markers etc, and not come if told? Dogs have to be taught first in order for them to disobey you. How old is this dog?

 Quote:

I dont want the new puppy to follow my kids around by any means but I want him to love them, want them to pet him and carry him and cuddle him. I thougth if I spent too much time setting up the rules, training him and stuff then he'd be only like that to me not my younger kids. I let them hold him, play with him and cuddle him as much as possible which he allows so hopefully he will learn to love them not like the other dog.

For starters, the puppy should never be left to wander around. And you shouldn't start training him too early, let him be a puppy.

And a working dog, contrary to a pet dog, is a dog that has a job. Like a police dog, or a dog for impaired people, or a drug sniffling dog, or a rescue dog. You get the point.

Working dogs are not trained exactly as you would train a pet dog.

Wow, now that's harsh Judy!

Maybe your teenagers weren't mature enough to handle dogs, but that hardly means that no teenager can do it. I agree with Richard here; the girl seems to be mature enough to handle it. So her dog doesn't listen to her all the time; most people nowadays don't have reliable obedience control over their dogs. Are you going to tell them that they're not smart or mature enough to own dogs?
As long as they don't own dangerous dogs and stick to couch potato types, what harm are they doing?

(And what did you mean about the teenager head to head thing? Sorry, lol, I didn't get that part either )

We all made mistakes and continue to make mistakes. Finding this site is an incredible eye-opener for most novices (such as myself). I'm sure that with better information (and supervision from the parents) that this girl can be the main handler for her dog.

As for the 8-year-old, depends on the kid. If Lovella is a strong pack leader to this puppy and reenforces her younger children's status, there's no reason why her 8-year-old can't handle the puppy from the start under her supervision.
In fact, if you want the pup to be especially attached to the younger children, that's fine. Just make sure you supervize them (and know how they should be interacting with the dog) and limit the pup's playing with the other family members.

Ditto what Richard (and Ed) said on this.

My parents bought me my first dog, a female shepherd puppy, when I was 10 years old. I did over a year's worth of intense book research beforehand and was certainly able to be a good pack leader to my dog (my parents knew nothing of dog care and left it all up to me). When I was 11, we enrolled in a local obedience club and passed 4 levels there. We also did some intermediate-level agility work.

Of course I made mistakes (I hadn't found Leerburg yet, haha) and I lacked some patience back then, but my young female and I did very well. We even finished first place 3 times in our obedience trials at the club, beating out more seasoned adult handlers!

Again, at 11 years old, I was a strong pack leader to my shepherd. She listened very reliably to me (not to family though), always waited for me to go out doors and stairs first (without being taught), and moved out of my way in the house. Sometimes she'd come up to the table during dinner and want food from us, but a lightly whispered "off" command from me and she'd immediately leave the table and go lie down on her bed.

I even taught her not to chase my rabbit and she learned to "herd" him back to me when he was loose in the yard and I couldn't catch him.

It can certainly be done. With supervision and physical assistance for an 8-year-old of course, but it can be done.

Lovella, just make sure that you really take the time to read and understand what's on this site. Remember, you have to be the one in charge here. The pup can play with the children and the younger ones can even handle the pup, walk it and do some obedience work with it, as long as you're there to make sure that they're doing it right.

I assume that your puppy isn't from working lines and isn't dominant? As long as the dog is submissive and willing to please, there's no reason why it can't sleep in its crate in the children's bedroom. It can certainly be allowed to interact with them (and on a limited basis with others) if you're supervising.

I remember Ed writing about visiting Herr Flinks' kennel in Germany and how he saw handlers of all levels (beginners included) working at Bernhard's club. One of them was an 11-year-old boy working his own working line female shepherd.

Or how about that lady, Claudia Romard? Wasn't she 16 when she competed in a national-level schutzhund competition in Germany with a dog she'd trained herself?

Again, Lovella, as long as you educate yourself and your children on proper interaction methods and such with the pup, there's no reason why you can't limit the pup's interactions with other family members and have your younger children be the main "handlers".

Just keep up what you're doing now with the constant supervizing, but no, they're certainly not too young to start learning. I'm sure that since you're considering this, that the pup has no issues with dominance and aggression

This will be a wonderful learning experience for your children and will help tremendously with developing their maturity, patience and compassion.

The one thing I'll add is that children often lack patience or the ability to control their emotions. If you see that they're too hectic or impatient when dealing with the pup, you might want to call it a day and try again when they're in a better frame of mind, lol

Having your children walk the pup is also a great way to establish rank. Make sure the pup has the appropriate collar and that the kids have tasty treats. You'll always have to be there to coach them and possibly provide physical support for corrections etc., but I'm sure that your children and the pup will have a wonderful time growing up and learning together.

Best of luck!!

 Quote: richard pryor

I don't understand why a 15 year old girl can't be a dogs pack leader. From what I read, this girl seems to be pretty mature. She dealt with a divorce and her father re-maried and she lives with him and her stepmom. Not sure if your parents are divorced, Judy, or if you are for that matter, but you mature a lot when you have to deal with the stuff this girl has dealt with. And I don't understand the head to head thing about teenagers. You mean handling a dog? I hope you don't think I'm picking on you

One of the first things Ed recommends is that you don't let others pet your puppy, and he specifically mention other family members. Granted he means for adults to handle dogs, but like I said, this girl seems to be pretty mature and able to deal with her dog.

What do you mean by the dog never listening to her? Does he know sit, for example, and not sit if she asks him to? Does he know come, as in he was taught 'come' with markers etc, and not come if told? Dogs have to be taught first in order for them to disobey you. How old is this dog?

 Quote:

I dont want the new puppy to follow my kids around by any means but I want him to love them, want them to pet him and carry him and cuddle him. I thougth if I spent too much time setting up the rules, training him and stuff then he'd be only like that to me not my younger kids. I let them hold him, play with him and cuddle him as much as possible which he allows so hopefully he will learn to love them not like the other dog.

For starters, the puppy should never be left to wander around. And you shouldn't start training him too early, let him be a puppy.

No, Richard. I don't think you're picking on me . The OP stated the dog doesn't listen to the teenager so how can she be an effective pack leader? The dog isn't listening on what appears to be a continual basis. See her original first or second post.

I asked how old the dog was (never got an answer) because if she, the teenager, was the "pack leader" from the age of 10, 11, 12 MAYBE she was too young to take on that role. I would not have suggested this if the OP stated, "The dog listens to and respects my daughter". But, she didn't say that.

Yuko misinterpreted my statements to mean all teenagers. Not what I said. The AVERAGE 15 year old is generally self absorbed. It's normal. Most harmless jokes about teenagers are usually funny but true (if you're a parent of a teenager Richard, you'll probably agree):

Teenagers: Tired of Being Harassed by Your Stupid Parents? ACT NOW!!! Move Out, Get a Job and Pay Your Own Bills While You Still Know Everything!

I was suggesting to the OP maybe she has the typical teenager and her 15 year old goes out with friends, talks on her cell phone, goes to school, IM's everyone, does homework, maybe has a boyfriend, maybe has a job, etc. You get the picture. She's busy being a normal teenager and maybe, just maybe her dog is not her number one priority. It was a suggestion to the OP that maybe the OP's view of "pack leadership" could or should change and to read up on this website.

Yuko, if you were a 11`year old whose dog was your number one priority, that describes you. It doesn't mean every young person is like that just like my statement was not meant to be interpreted that every young person isn't like that .

Wow thanks so much for all the responses.

First my 15 year old is very mature. I mean compared to all her friends and my other nieces her age she by far shows responsiblity. I trust her to babysit my kids where as I wouldn't trust most 15 year olds.

She has had the dog since last year in Feb. The dog was 3 months when he came home so he's about 15months now. Yes I guess he listens to her like to sit. But when we get home and he gets out of his kennel he will be excited and run around and won't come to her when she's calling him. Or he will bark or growl and she will hold his mouth tell him to stop but he still does it. At that point I will take his face and look him in the eye and tell him to stop until he becomes submissive (read that one!) I promise I"ve been doing much research!

Questions

1. How can my daughter get the older dog to start liking my younger daughters? Right now he will not let them pet him or hold him. How can she fix that? Or is it too late?

2. So I should make sure my younger daughters are not yet trying to make the puppy sit by saying sit if he has not mastered it yet correct? BUt once he does they can start. That is with every command they know correct?

3. is this right? I told him daughters that when he chews like let's say on their pants to not try to stop him (because theyd ont do it correctly) but instead call me over and I will stop him in action. Good idea?






Thanks again so much!

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But when we get home and he gets out of his kennel he will be excited and run around and won't come to her when she's calling him. Or he will bark or growl and she will hold his mouth tell him to stop but he still does it.

I think the dog is just being a dog, and when he's been locked up and then is let out of the kennel, he will be exited and probably won't pay attention. That's why most trainers recommend not making a big deal when you arrive home. Either leave him in his kennel for 5-10 mins after you get home, or when you take him out, just ignore him and don't do the "how's my baby?!. did you miss me?!" treatment (don't do this even if you leave him for 5 mins in his crate after you get home). This makes the dog even more excited. Plus he's still a young dog.

Don't let your daughter hold his mouth when he's barking or growling. You never know what could happen. Tell her to say a firm "NO", and if he doesn't comply, to pop the leash. I really recommend you get the Basic Obedience DVD. I saw it for the first time yesterday, and was really impressed by the amount of information in it. It's 4 hours long and covers everything we've been talking about here. Trust me, you and your family will be glad you got it, and so will your dogs. Now that you have a new puppy, it's almost as if you HAVE to buy it.

The questions you ask are answered in the DVD. What I would do is to have the oldest daughter walk the dog and the other two girls nearby. The younger girls should have some treats in their hands and should give him the treats (one girl at a time) and pet him. The oldest daughter's attitude should be one of encouragement and support towards the whole situation, as in "it's ok to let them pet you". Slowly, the dog will know it's ok for him to be around, and be petted, by the other girls. It's never too late to do this.

woops, hit submit too early.

Regarding question number two, I would make sure the girls are not confusing the dog with too many commands. If the dog doesn't know 'sit', and Ed says you have to go over the command at least 30 times before the dog knows it, I wouldn't have them ask him to sit yet. Once he learns how to sit, and you can teach him together with the girls, it's ok for them to ask him to sit.

I would suggest you get the DVD I told you about before teaching him to sit, if you're not familiar with marker training. This is by far the best way to teach a dog how to sit, and he will know sit in no time, but it requires consistency, specially when establishing your marker. All your family members should sit and watch this DVD.

I guess it's a good idea for them to call you when the puppy's biting them, but remember the dog is only playing. This is the way dogs play and establish their place in the pack. Sometimes you won't be around (and honestly I would get sick and tired of having to stop a puppy from biting EVERY member of the family... it just won't stop!), so it's best to teach your daughters how to stop him. Read Ed's article on teaching a puppy the meaning of the word NO, and if you still feel your daughters can't handle this, tell them to redirect the dogs attention by giving him a toy to chew instead of their pants.

Congratulations on your new dog and on being responsible enough to come here and ask your questions. Get the Basic Obedience DVD and most of your dog problems will go away.

 Quote: judy troiano

I was suggesting to the OP maybe she has the typical teenager and her 15 year old goes out with friends, talks on her cell phone, goes to school, IM's everyone, does homework, maybe has a boyfriend, maybe has a job, etc. You get the picture. She's busy being a normal teenager and maybe, just maybe her dog is not her number one priority.

Um, Judy, you just described me at 15!
Except for back when Moka was a young puppy, she wasn't my number one priority. Of course I made sure she got walked, fed, trained and played with, but my priorities were school and friends.

There were plenty of times when I was just too busy to walk her or feed her (exams, away on school trips or with friends) and my family (mother) would take over. I was her main handler and caregiver of course (even at 10 years old), but my mother was there to take over with walks and feeding when I was too busy being a "teenager".

Even without the advantage of being "extraordinary" like your lucky children , I did a decent job raising and training Moka and it all worked out fine. Like Lovella's 15-year-old, I was more responsible than the average young teen and my parents saw that in me. I'm so grateful to them for respecting that, for believing in my abilities and commitment and for giving me the privilege of having a dog.

I certainly wasn't dedicated to her like I am to my current pup and I don't think there was anything wrong with that. Moka is a family pet and she always got what she needed, every single day of her life, whether from me or from my family.
Isn't that the whole point of a family pet?
As you said, the dog should of course respect the rank of all family members. I just don't think it's fair to Lovella (or her children) to be picked on because she wants a dog "for her kids" when her children aren't old enough to be 100% responsible for the puppy's care.

Of course they're too young for that, and clearly she's not expecting them to be in charge of the puppy's care. She's doing her research and working at this, isn't she? Sounds very responsible and smart to me

I don't think it's a problem at all (certainly not "crazy") that Lovella wants this new pup to be more attached to her younger children. It's a given of course that EVERYONE in the family should rank higher than the dog and that she should supervize the little ones' interaction with the pup at all times for everyone's safety.

Lovella, if you continue to learn the techniques for yourself as you're doing already (good job btw!), you can teach the children and have them be the main handlers for the puppy. They can have the pup tethered to them in the house (make sure you're around to show them what to do when the puppy needs to go out or does something wrong).
They can be the ones to play with, walk and socialize the pup (again, you should always be there).
They can feed the puppy its meals and make it sit for its food (again, supervize and coach them).
They can also be the ones to start marker training with treats.

Lovella, if you do all that, then yes, the new puppy will become more attached to your younger children than to you or the rest of the family. You can even limit the puppy's playing with other family members so the puppy goes to the little ones for its play and affection.

Ed describes this procedure for raising a working puppy. Even though yours will just be a pet, the principle is the same. You teach the dog, starting at a young age, who to look to for play, affection and food. This is all up to you to decide.

Are you sure this is what you want? If you go through with this and your younger children eventually lose interest, the puppy will still look to them for its play and affection needs. If you are sure, and are willing to take on the responsibility and time to supervize and make this all happen, then I say go for it!

You can take over part of either dog's care (feeding, walks) when your children are too busy with school, life etc. and could use the help. That shouldn't affect their relationship with the dogs.

I think you're being very responsible in researching this instead of just tossing a puppy to young kids and leaving it at that. I think your question is a valid one and that your plan can work.

Richard gave excellent advice on how to get your 15-year-old daughter's dog to warm up to the little ones (the Leerburg videos are extremely helpful, I recommend them!). Because he sees your 15-year-old as his leader, he will follow her lead and will learn to play with the other children if she encourages it.

As for you, you should be a strong pack leader to all the dogs and make it VERY clear in their minds that you will not tolerate any obnoxious or aggressive behaviour displayed to the kids (don't leave this part up to them!! the dog needs to see you intervene strongly on your children's behalf). This includes the older dog.
Your little ones will most likely need your support to maintain their rank (unless the puppy turns out to be an absolute submissive sweet marshmallow of a dog, lol).

Best of luck. It certainly sounds like you have your hands full!