One thing I noticed is that the sample LB meals for a week include the leg quarter option for the 90-pound adult but not for the 65-pound adult.

The smaller dog's menu says "backs or necks."

This makes sense to me; I am also getting the books back out.

Ya know, I just add some ground egg shells (that I have saved and dried from our meals, hubby does not like shells ) and two or three calcium tablets ground up and added to the veggie mix, which feeds four dogs for a month. I do this to supplement because I have alot (over 100 lbs) of ground meat (bone not included) that was "donated" to me from the meat locker and hunters. So when I feed that I feel like they may not be getting enough calcium.

It is not a huge amount at all and maybe I should have clarified that. But I am trying to get down to as few supplements as possible.

I am still new to the world of supplements so if I really do not need it I will cut it out, no problem.

Thanks Connie

 Quote: carol boche

I do this to supplement because I have alot (over 100 lbs) of ground meat (bone not included) that was "donated" to me from the meat locker and hunters. So when I feed that I feel like they may not be getting enough calcium.

I getcha.

I would too.

If I had a lot of straight meat I'd consider calcium, too.

So to everyone feeding a regular balanced raw diet with RMBs, calcium supplementation is not required or desired.

JMO.

About the weight-bearing bones thing:

I emailed a class instructor (Canine Nutrition) about it and he apologized about the vagueness --- but was vague. He said if the bird is small enough to be called a fryer then he gives the legs, but if the leg alone weighs a pound and has its own package then he doesn't. (He pretty much confirmed what Alice said.)

I also sent a message to Cindy and asked for her input when she has a chance.

Hiya Amber!
It sounds like you snagged a nice supply of meats for your new raw menus
I'd start with the breasts and game hens if I were you.

Wings and thighs are fine as long as he CHEWS HIS FOOD and doesn't just gulp everything down. Actually, my pup gulped down his share of wings and thighs on occasion as a 3-month-old and had no trouble digesting any of it.

Let me just preface the following by saying that I have the greatest respect for Carol and Connie and continue to learn a great deal from them. You can't go wrong following their advice

However, I think you two are making life way too complicated for yourselves Connie, I understand grinding up chicken thighs (or avoiding them all together) for sick older dogs with bad teeth who've never been on raw before. Or for young puppies. I would do the exact same thing.

But Carbon is a vigorous 5-month-old GSD pup who's bursting with health and who isn't completely new to raw (I believe he was on ground Bravo raw meals 50/50 with Innova kibble until now?)

Ground bones will keep the enzymes going, unlike kibble.

Amber, as long as you include bones in most of his meals, don't bother with calcium supplements or calculating ratios.
In fact, calcium supplements can be really dangerous to the growing joints of a dog!!
You can add over-supplementation of calcium on the list of "Things that cause hip dysplasia in dogs".

When I first told my vet (who's practiced for 30+ years) that I was going to feed all raw, his ONLY warning to me was to be careful with supplements, and to not ever supplement calcium!! Even as a non raw feeder, this vet told me that my dogs would get all the nutrition and balance that they needed out of their meals, as long as I kept things varied and didn't mess around with too many supplements.
The only "safe" supplements, he said, were salmon oil and vitamin E (in low doses only!!), and vitamin C (higher doses are safe with Vit C since it's water-soluble and any excesses will be excreted in the urine).

Supplementing -- especially with minerals and with lipid-soluble vitamins -- is a slippery road. You can easily overload the body to the point of toxicity if you're not careful.
Besides, not all nutrient interactions are understood at this time, so it's always safer to go with whole foods instead of giving synthetic mineral/vitamin sources here and there and risk causing an unbalance.
There are many nutrient combinations in foods which will naturally prevent any damaging inbalances from occurring - if you feel that you're feeding too much muscle meat and that he may lack calcium, just add bones to his diet.

As Connie said, non weight-bearing bones like chicken backs (or even pork riblets for a good chewer - my suggestion) are a great natural source of calcium. Because they're whole foods, you also won't have to worry about messing up Carbon's metabolism with excess mineral deposits where they don't belong

Also keep in mind that it isn't important to calculate ratios for every meal. Just make sure that the dog receives, say over a week, an overall balance of meats, organs and bones.

If he goes 3 days eating minimal bones (chicken breasts), then feed him ribs on the 4th day. Cutting meat off the bones in order to balance out each and every single meal seems excessive.
It won't hurt of course, but it's a waste of time

I've mentioned this on another thread, but if you prefer to get a general balance of meats/bones every day, the best way to go about this is to monitor the dog's poop
Just glance at it, no need to perform microsurgery on it!!


Poop is very soft and pudding-like: a result of feeding a lot of muscle meats and organs in the day's meals. Either feed more bony stuff the following day, or modify your menus to decrease the meats and increase the bones in a day's portion.

Poop is brown and firm: your feeding is fine.

Poop turns white and powdery when left in the yard: your feeding is fine.

Poop comes out very powdery and is (or turns) yellow: too much bone in the diet, cut back on bones or risk an impaction if you continue this long-term.

That's really all there is to it!

The reason I don't really agree with using a fixed ratio is that a dog/puppy's nutrient needs will vary as he grows.

Amber, you may notice this once you switch to 100% raw.
Let's say you work out a meat/bone ratio for Carbs and get his poops to come out exactly the same day after day.

When he hits a growth spurt (and he will! lol), his body will suddenly use up a lot more calcium and other bone minerals and as a result, his poops might suddenly get softer. Even though you haven't changed a thing in the feeding.

Now a dog or puppy will get the nutrition it needs out of its meals if you're providing decent balance and good variety, so it doesn't necessarily mean that you need to change anything.

But you may find that you prefer to increase the bone contents of his meals to make yard-cleanup easier

Just goes to show that nutrition is a much more fluid concept with far more variables than the strict ratio-followers realize.

Don't be afraid to just feed what you have on hand! If it's 99% meat, who cares? No need to start shaving the meat off to make it look like a chicken back

It's how you balance it out over time that matters.

Another thing to keep in mind is that wolves don't balance out each meal in the wild. In fact, the alphas would be getting a lot more meat and organs than the lower-ranking members at the same meal! They gorge on the meaty bloody parts and go sleep, while the lower ranking members are left to nibble on the bones and fur It all works out over time.

Oh and like the Leerburg feeding model, I have used chicken thighs as a staple for both a young puppy and a 10-year-old who was new to raw. This was back during the summer before I'd found most of my meat sources. They both did fine and didn't have any trouble dissolving the bones of the thigh.
If they'd started pooping out bone shards, then yeah, I would've switched to chicken backs.

Don't fix it if it isn't broken

GOOD LUCK!!!

And congratulations, you're one of us now!!!

I hope Carbs' teeth clear up... I think you mentioned a beginning of tartar on his teeth? Hopefully the real raw meals will clear that up in no time.

Happy feedings

Addendum (I'm a wind-bag, I know ):

I feed bones that are much harder than chicken thighs. Right now I have a huge supply of giant turkey legs -- if you thought a turkey wing was big and scary, your jaw will drop at the sight of a turkey leg!

Both my dogs have been eating those for weeks now, at least 3-4 legs a week, and there's been no trouble whatsoever. Even my 11-year-old 59 lbs. female, Moka, has no trouble with them as evidenced by the aftermath

The good news is that no dog is going to gulp a turkey leg...

The one bone-type that I did stop feeding was deer legs (the lower leg). They're such rock-hard bones that I worried that my dogs would break a tooth on them. I think my pup may have chipped one of his smaller molars (not sure, will ask at next vet visit) on those.
Neither dog actually consumed the bones, but they cracked them open to eat the marrow.
The thicker bigger bones (like pork thighs) are ok, cause dogs tend to just gnaw on them.
However, the narrow lower-leg bones are just too tempting for the dogs (they really crunch down on them to break them open).

No more venison leg bones

Hi Yuko

What do you think about venison necks?

I don't like calcium supplementation either. (My answer to the weight-bearing bone thing has been to grind them.)

Minerals and oil-soluble vitamins are a far different thing from water-soluble vitamins, and not nearly as forgiving of experimentation. JMO.

And my way of balancing RMBs that might be extremely meaty is to feed them in the same general time frame as a bonier item.... and vice versa.

That said, I hope it's 100% clear here that a muscle-meat-with-no-bones diet is not OK.

I know it was clarified, but no harm in re-clarifying (because 100 pounds of meat with no bones might catch a newbie's eye :grin.

Necks are not weight-bearing, they're fine

My dogs get cow and pig necks too and love them.


Edit: never hurts to clarify Connie!! And I couldn't agree more about the 100 lbs. of muscle meats.
Although there isn't much scientific research that has been done on raw feeding, I did read articles published by veterinarians who have started seeing some diseases like rickets (sp?) and other metabolic and bone/joint disorders lately, coinciding with an increased popularity in feeding a homemade diet to dogs.
These massive mineral inbalances had been eliminated in recent years with the advent of """balanced""" comercial dog foods.

In each case, the owners of the sick dogs were feeding (mostly cooked) homemade diets without bones and had somehow managed, through their lack of research, to cause severe nutritional deficiencies in their dogs.

These dogs were all cured by being switched to a commercial kibble.

Of course if their owners had just thrown them a few bones here and there it also would've solved the issue

Yuko,
It is I that grind...hee hee

I grind due to the fact that my Mal has tried to give me a heart attack by swallowing whole legs AND thighs, one crunch and they are gone. I am sure with time she will calm down and I will be able to go whole.

I am actually going to try a half a chicken, maybe bigger will slow her down a bit????

She is the only one that still bothers me a bit about bones. But I am getting better.....

 Quote: Carol Boche

Yuko,
It is I that grind...hee hee

IMHO, if grinding some of the bigger bones allows you to feel comfortable, then go for it.

(I'm especially sympathetic because I grind legs. I know I've mentioned it a few times: My granddog fractured a tooth on a raw thigh bone, and I'll never forget how much that dental work at Tufts cost.)

Many dogs down the road, we all learn that there is no real cut-and-dry method that works for everyone.