Last year I went on vacation and had to kennel my dog so I had to get him vaccinated. This year when he came up for his heartworm I intended to pass on the shots because he's 10 years old and just had them last year. When I came in and said I did not want vaccines this year and wanted to run titers instead she said titer levels were not foolproof, blah, blah, blah. So I insisted on having them priced out, for distemper and rabies. She told me over $300.00!!!! That's $200.00 or more than the whole series of shots.
I was in shock.
So I said, Okay I'll only do the rabies titers, because he received the 3-year vaccine last year. Then she said, If you don't give him the rabies vaccine you can't come back. I said (rather ticked off) Okay give him the rabies but that's all. Then she said, If he doesn't get all the boosters he can't come back. I was floored. This is the first time this has happened. I've gone 2-3 years without a vaccination before. I'd like to try longer...but what to do? This was a younger vet, I'd think they would be a little more flexible. I decided not to mention the BARF diet my dog is on, because she didn't seem to enthused.
I must admit, I caved. Max got all his shots. He's been healthy as a horse his whole life, but he is getting older and you never know when you might need a vet. However, I am definately not going back there again and will spend the next few months looking for a new vet.

Melissa - Many vets are going with (and AVMA is in discussions) for a 3 year protocol for vaccinnes in lieu of titers -- you could possibly find another vet.

My vet vaccinates every three years until 9 or 10 then only does rabies.

Are you using HW shots as well? The oral monthly would be one place where you could get a margin of safety as ivermectin is Sooo safe for years and years.....

Concerning rabies. There is a hugh body of evidence for 3 year efficacy *but* rabies frequency is mandated by state law. When SC was annual and NC was every three years, I took my dogs to an NC vet (I live on the state line)

The first dog I ever owned only received whatever vaccination was given to her at the pound. Thereafter she was only vaccinated for rabies as required by law (every three years where I am).

It was not an informed decision not to vaccinate her. I was 12 years old and didn't know better, and apparently my parents didn't either or didn't care. By the time I got older and thought about vaccinating her, my thought was-she's lived this long without any vaccines, why start now? She lived to be 13 years old and died of cancer. I used to take her to dog beach EVERY weekend and she never caught anything.

As for the kennelling- I kennelled my dog once about two years ago. I told them I give my own vaccinations so didn't have any "official" proof of vaccination. They boarded my dog. I'm not saying to lie to boarding facilities. At that time it was true-I did give my own vaccinations and didn't keep records.

Rabies titers aren't a good idea around here. They are accurate, but if anything happens to your dog then animal control considers the dog unvaccinated and the dog will probably have its head removed for testing by the end of the day if you are unlucky.

Melissa, the AAHA vaccination protocol states that MLV distemper and parvo vaccs last for 5 to 7 years (find it and read it yourself to make sure I got it right). I was going to a vet that wouldn't say that Auster was vaccinated (for boarding purposes) unless she had a yearly jab, so I found a new vet. It's a 45 minute drive (probably 3 dozen places or more are closer) but it is worth it to have a vet that uses his brain instead of following a vaccination protocol that was formulated from a limited trial in the 1950's (that's how we got the yearly recommendation).

For titers, have your vet draw blood and send it to Dr. Dodds. An order form is at http://www.itsfortheanimals.com You won't find it any cheaper than that, and if you do then tell me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> .

I am a kennels owner in canada and I have been strugling with this issue. I have had dogs that had not had their shots and the titers were good. Well the dog left with Canine Cough (Bordetella). A dog show held last summer had 5 unvaccinated dogs leave with parvo. Yes these dogs were feed raw and all levels were good. The owner of dog with Canine Cough was very mad at me and tryed to hold me responsible. I think that I was because I let the dog in the kennels. after that weekend we had 5 other dogs infected and I have been told by vets that I have the cleanest kennel they have ever seen. I have seen to many negatives not to go with what most vets say. this could be the difference bettwen me lossing my all my clients or just a few. It is ot much of a risk to put my carrer on the line. Dont get me wrong, I would like to accept the titers and not vaccinate. but for me the risk is to high. I have a great reputation and it only takes a moment to loss many years of hard work. It only takes one dog to get ill for me to loss everything. Now you know why kennel owners are so pushy and insist on vaccs. to may dogs and to much to loss. not worth the risk <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hope that nobody hates me for this. just would like to let you see it from our side.

Most cases of Kennel cough are actually caused by the vaccine. I have experienced this first hand this year. I kept a pup from a litter bred by a freind (my male was the sire). Many of us with pups get together to socialize our dogs etc. The breeder gave her pup the kennel cough vaccination. Within 10 days he was coughing. It was at this time that I with my pup and another pup got together for play time. I noticed the one guy coughing and mentioed it to the owner. She said ya, he had the vaccination for kennel cough 10 days ago. She also said that he could not get kennel cough from the vaccine and he absoulutely could not pass it on to other dogs. I knew different but did not make a big deal of it. Sure enough within 10 days my pup and the other pup visiting had kennel cough. My pups cough lasted 10 days, however, her coughing was real minimal (maybe 1-2 times a day). She did not go off her food, still had all her energy and did not have the runs (she is raw fed). The other pup had a more severe cough, had the runs, but still had good energy (kibble fed). NONE of my other dogs in the house (they are all house dogs) caught kennel cough from my dog and none have been vaccinated for it.

The Kennel cough vaccine is simular to our flu vaccine. When they put it together they are 'guessing' at what virus is going to make the rounds. There are appox. 80 different types of kennel cough and the vaccination is suppose to protect against 5-6 of them. It also only lasts 3-4 months. Thus, from my perspective it is a useless vaccation.

There have been studies done on this vaccintion in kennel environments/rescues. I believe one of them is quoted and talked about in Catherine O'Driscoll's book, What the Vets Don't Tell You About Vaccines. It is not a coincindence that kennel cough is seen in a lot in rescues,spca's where they dogs are vaccinated for it the most.

The owner of dog with Canine Cough was very mad at me and tryed to hold me responsible Have people sign a waiver. As a person who feeds raw and does not do vaccines I would be more than happy to sign a waiver regarding these issues. I beleive that my dog is healthy and does have a superior immune system. If I have chosen your kennel I have hopefully done some homework via 'reputation'. I have talked with the owner and feel that they do everything possible to keep thier kennel clean and free of disease. I have been told up front IF they have had any problems (recent) regarding dogs being borded etc (so that I also get to make an informed choice). If I choose to board my dogs there and they have no vaccinations they I am taking the responsiblity for thier health etc. Usually people who choose no vaccinations (or limited vaccines) have done the research and are informed. IF my unvaccinated dog came down with kennel cough then I would deal with it. That is the 'risk' I took when I chose to put my dog in your kennel. 99% of the time kennel cough is an inconvenience, a *cold* and not something to panic about!

A dog show held last summer had 5 unvaccinated dogs leave with parvo. Yes these dogs were feed raw and all levels were good.
My *guess* is that perhaps it was not parvo but the virus they are calling 'show crud' which presents itself as parvo (simular symptoms etc) . There are articles on the net for this virus as well.

If you really *push* veternarians regarding parvo and distemper you will likley find that almost ALL the cases are in young pups. The vets I have talked to consider both of these puppy issues. Having said that, yes , an adult dog can come down with both but again it is usually in dogs whose immune symptoms have been compromised.


after that weekend we had 5 other dogs infected and I have been told by vets that I have the cleanest kennel they have ever seen You likely had dogs come in that were recently vaccinated and spread it from there. Thus not accepting dogs with 'titers' would not likley change what happens. You could try and take these opportunties for 'education'. DO research and reading. Photocopy studies that talk about vaccinations and the 'true' facts. A good start is Catherine's book. THere are also MANY aticles on the net.

I am not sure which dog left with canine cough? The unvaccinated one or a dog that was vaccinated? MANY, MANY dogs that are vaccinated for kennel cough still get kennel cough!!!

If a person beleives that vaccinations are the 'be all end all' and WILL protect thier dogs/cats from diseases/virus's then why are they worried about coming into contact with animals that are not vaccinated? Isn't that the whole reason you vaccinate? In case your dog comes into contact with the disease?

The people who should be worried are those that do NOT vaccinate. According to the above people these animals are the most vulnerable. These are the ones that are going to get the disease , get sick and die from it. However, in most cases , as I mention above, the owners of these dogs DO take responsibility and go into situations knowing the so called 'risks'. And in most cases, have the healthy dogs that do not come down with the disease/virus. These people are also usually the ones that will sign waivers. As well, most that do not vaccinate also know and recognize that dogs that are vaccinated (especially recent vaccine where they are shedding them into the enviroment) are more likley to carry the disease and pass it along to their unvaccinated dogs. IF everything works like it is suppose to (you have a healthy animal with a strong immune system) then the unvaccinated dogs does get its own natural immuntiy. That is why you see the examples of some of the above experiences. My younger dogs have not been vaccinated and they all have titers to parvo and distemper (the only things I would consider vaccinating for). How did they get the titer or immunity? By coming into contact with the virus in the environment and most likely by it being shed from a vaccinated dog.

If I was a kennel owner the dogs that I would be most 'suspect' about and would want to see the vaccination 'papers' on are those that are vaccinated. In a 'perfect' scenerio I would want to make sure that NO dogs are boarded in my kennel that have recieved any vaccination within the month prior to boarding. My sister recently took her dog to the UK (had to wait until the quarentine ban was lifted). However, she was NOT allowed to take the dog until 6 months AFTER the rabies vaccination so that it would not be 'shed' into the environment. I am also pretty sure that no dog in the UK is vaccinated for rabies? As this could bring it back into the environment.

Thanks for the good info. I have a talk with my vet and we will be looking for a minumum level that the titers should be at and if they can get a number that is safe then we will accept titers. but untill then we have to keep with what we are doing. My vets let me know aswell that they may be moving to vaccanate every 2 years once there is more testing done on the vacciens.

Thanks again for your oppion. I do respect them all.

Talk soon
Dave

Just so you know a low level titer does not necessarily mean that there is no immunity. All it may mean is that the dog has not been in contact with the particular virus lately. When they are, their body sends out the message and antibodies are made and you thus register a higher titer level.

So..often dogs with high titers and have not had a recent vaccination have been in contact lately with the virus in the environment and thier immune system is working properly. Howver, the low titer might just mean they have not been in contact with the virus.

The only time for real concern would be the dog that recieves a vaccination and you check the titer level 2-3 wks. later. They should be registering a high titer level IF the vaccine worked. I exeperienced this with my one dog and this actually started me on the whole vaccine issue. I had given her a parvo vaccination at 12 wks. old. I then did a titer 3 wks. later. The titer came back 0! Now that is VERY unusual. The vaccine did not work! My vet was actually VERY surprised and a litte concerned. As hardly anyone EVER asks for titers after vaccinations we really don't know if they 'take' or do not. As I was just beginning my 'journey' on the whole vaccination issue I did as my vet suggested. I waited another couple of weeks and gave her a parvo 'booster'. She then wanted to do another titer. Now, by this time, I had decided I would NOT do another vaccination regardless of what the titer said, thus did not see the point in doing another titer and putting out that money. However, the vet really wanted to know as she suspeted the vaccine and company. In the end that vaccine company paid for the titer. He came out around 12 (should have been at least 40).

I never did do another vaccine with her and when I did a titer 2 yrs. later she had a high titer to parvo.

Thanks. We have decided to accept titers on the condition that the vet gives us a note that the dog is heathy and that the titer levels are hgh enough to keep the dog safe. This should help clear up any issues with our clients and take the stress off me.

Thanks again
Dave