Jennifer, is it possible to tell us about the other training sites? I'm curious to know. When I found Leerburg (almost a year ago), I think I saw maybe a couple other sites, but no forum. I think the people here are fantastic.

We all accept our dogs as family (pack?) members, don't we? How hard is it to understand? All animals will do the same given the circumstances a dog experiences. A loving family unit no matter the species.I agree with Mike..pure crapple.

I'm beginning to like the other forums I visit less and less. My questions really aren't answered. Rather I'm left with the feeling that not only am I a novice, but I will always be a novice. I've had some success with my Rottweiler, Tank, and with Amy. Tank sits on command even if your back is turned to him. He's doing wonderful with the "stay" command, but hasn't been weaned off the hand signal yet. When I try to share my experiences with other novice dog owners I feel almost bullied. I make no claim to being a dog trainer and even start my replies with "I've had success with..." or "it's worth a try if you..." Later on in the day I have several replies that spend more time discrediting me than actually helping the original poster.

On this forum there may be those that disagree but nobody makes me feel like their methods are the only methods.

Both of my dogs respond well to both positive and negative reinforcement. I've noticed that with one dog verbal correction works very well, whereas with the other (Amy) corrections with the collar tend to be used more frequently. Both dogs will work for food and praise, though Tank will also work for toys (preferably tugging toys, like a rope). Amy really doesn't work for toys. These are things that I notice about my dogs and I feel they are important if training them is to be successful.

Such observations are meaningless in the "one-size fits all" approach that was offered on the other forums. This will be the last week for the training courses with Tank. During the entire time, I was the only one that corrected my pup (despite the trainer's recommendations not to). Every week, Tank had learned each command but not so much because of the trainer. I have yet to see one of the other dogs "sit."

I think I'll just use the money for training Tank and Amy at home. Even with the trainer, I still had to teach Tank on my own and figure out the best way to go about teaching him. For example, the trainer recommended bitter apple spray to deter him from chewing on the leash. Now Tank loves to chew anything that has that taste and smell on it (strange dog, I know). Rather saying "No, no, no" in rapid succession works better than saying "drop it." I really don't know why, but it does, and it only has to do with the leash. "Drop it" works on most everything else.

When I decided to get serious about training my dogs, I never realized that finding a good "game plan" would be so difficult. I believe this forum is a good place to start though.

NILIF = Nothing in life is free.

To Deanna's point, Mike: It's a training method wherein every single thing the dog needs/wants comes from YOU, and ONLY after performing some method of work.

Want to play tug? Do a down for 2 minutes while looking at the toy. Want to go for a walk? Sit quietly at the door while I go through first. Want a treat? Sit, Down, Stand, Down, Sit... You get the idea.

This is in no way to say it is the only method to train dogs, as Jennifer, the OP has found. It's a technique that works for some, and is generally considered a stable platform to base working dog training from.

And, Jennifer: Good job on the dog training! YOU are the one that needs to be happy with your training methods. YOU are the one that needs to be comfortable with how your dogs perform. If others are trying to bash your training methods, thank them kindly for their advice, and continue on your (happy, successful) way.

Luck!
-Jim

I like Mike Arnold's definition of 'fair and consistent'. Very well put. And everyone's posts are right on the mark. If you're doing something that works and works quite well, why change it. I don't see Jennifer's methods as antiquated, that being said, not everything that is "antiquated" is negative. Some of those old things serve to ground us. Classic case of not throwing the baby out with the bath water. Or continuing to have turkey on Thanksgiving . If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it works in a kind and fair manner to the dog (as Mike A. put it) and the dog is happy, keep it.

OK in a little more patient mood this morning so I'll try and answer the original post so maybe you can feel a good direction to take Or maybe not and I'll just be rambling, but what else is new?

Firstly, your pup is 4 months old. I don't even do anything with a 4 month old puppy! That is not an age to really worry about it. Rotties can grow up to be buttheads, and as a new "handler" it is probably best that you maintain control and respect from him young so you run into less aggression problems down the road. Having said that, having respect and control over a 4 month old puppy doesn't really require corrections or specific obedience training. I wouldn't correct dogs till at least 6 months and I personally, for my own breed choices, temprements and needs, would wait as late as possible, 10-12 months, first. Read my posts on "prong = drive" now, so when he is older and if you run into aggression problems, you will know the difference between when to use a prong and when to use a choker. Ofcourse, as you are new to it, I suggest that if those problems ever do arise, you are best of speaking to someone local that is experienced in dealing with large aggressive dogs

OK so that's my view on corrections for a pup. As for training itself. NILIF is good, but I don't really stick to it. In fact I probably go the opposite. Other people usually use it to calm their dog down, I use it to amp my dogs up. "Bark for food, jump 6ft in the air, go nuts". I want to make them antsy because I want that drive, but that's probably not the way to go for you unless your dog has trouble eating I like teaching a dog with food when they are young. Training is simply repetition. Remember that, tattoo it on your husbands forehead if you have to. If you make a dog repeat the same thing enough times, it will stick! At 4 months old at a time when you don't have to worry about corrections, in a young moldable mind, it is easy to teach the dog everything they need to know simply thru repetition. If you tell the dog sit, they might not sit for 3 minutes, but if their butt hits the ground, give food. Tell them sit 100 times a day at random times and always have some type of treat on you for reward. Make them sit whenever you get a whim to make them sit, then in 3 months everytime you say sit he will listen. As the dog gets older you can start with corrections after he knows the word "sit" flawlessly. Don't expect too much from a puppy. If you tell him sit and he doesn't sit, help him out, show him what you are asking of him, pull up on his flat collar and push his butt down. Eventually when he "gets it" (he might even do it now?) just move the treat over his nose toward the back of his head and he will sit trying to follow the food. Bribing? Nah, repetition repetition repetition. It will stick. Then there is a period where you offer food intermittently and start to ween off it and start to use corrections for disobeying a command the dog knows well.

If a dog repeats any behavior enough times it will become a habbit.

People who whine about dogs not recognizing humans as a pack are pretty blind and usually just repeating what someone else heard (granted, even many people who dish out good advice are just repeating what they heard somewhere else!). Dogs only understand 1 way of interacting and it is a pack menality. Look at a litter of puppies, the first instinct they have is to fight and establish dominance. If you have ever dealt with a dominant dog and seen how they change and respond to a strong human you will understand. I's not even about corrections or force, it's not about making the dog sit before you go outside or keep off the furniture or any of that stuff. It is about how you present yourself to your dog, dogs key on body language, if you approach the dog in an assertive way, the dog will respect you, it goes with everything you do to handle the dog throughout their life. Some people have a dominant presence and some people don't. Those who don't need to follow the "pack leadership rules" (first thru doors etc) because it's difficult to teach an unassertive person to be assertive. But you can teach that person behaviors that the dog can interpret as being assertive. Some people just shouldn't own a dominant dog, and some dogs really aren't that dominant but their handlers lack any skill whatsoever in telling that dog how to behave. I have seen ducks bonded with dogs, the dog knows the duck is a duck, but animals live their life instinctively by rank. So do humans, we have a class system, we have law enforcement, goverment, parents, children. Teachers, students. There is rank everywhere and it is nature. Dogs understand rank and respect it if you can demonstrate to the dog that you are a more competent leader than they are.

As for the comment about dogs not understanding corrections. Dogs think in black or white. "If I do this, good things happen. If I do that, bad things happen". Simple, it is not a difficult concept and people live the same way. Stick your hand in the fire and you learn "OK sticking my hand in the fire is bad".

Take it easy with your pup. Pups are pups, their attention span isn't that long, they don't remember things as well as an older dog. Like I said, rotties can be buttheads to be on top of him rank-wise, but you don't have to kill him over obedience at this point.

Jennifer, I think your 4 month old puppy barking at strangers does kind of fall under socialising. With both Rotts Ive owned, between 4 months and about a year everything and every place was still new and different people's actions and sometimes just appearence got barked at. I don't know if all dogs go through it but I think for a dog with natural protective instincts like a Rott it's probably pretty normal. I always tried to not really react,just calm my puppy. Have him sit while I talk to the person and apologize depending on their reaction. And then move on. It didnt last too long. If there is a better way or advice from anyone else, please correct me.