Anybody know If I can get Salomon oil In liquid form or do I have to give them a pill? thank You!!! ......Tim

Aiko,
Thanks for the info. It's so easy to get conflicting information on dog feeding. Some of the Pitcairn recipes use oats, and another book I was browsing today said that you should never feed the dog raw meats. Anyway, that's one reason I'm not ready to switch completely. I don't feel I have enough good info. Keep it coming, folks!

I think there will always be controversy over feeding raw meat. The main concerns I hear all the time are 1) ecoli and salmonella 2) the meat you feed raw has hormones and antibitics in it , which can't be good for you.

I have been feeding raw for 8 years to 6 dogs and never had a case where the dogs have been sick with salmonella or ecoli. Now, I assume that they are eating meat that does contain one or other but, their bodies deal with it. I was actually at a new vet's place today. (My vet closed her clinic so I am looking for a new one...I hate that!) So, I asked this vet about BARF feeding etc. His 2 points against it were both of the above. When I said that I have been feeding raw for 8 yrs. and never had a problem, he then said....well, what if someone in your family got ecoli or salmonella from the dogs or food they ate. Well...maybe that is a piont? I don't have children, so I can't comment on that , but I have never been sick from it. We handle raw meat all the time! What surprised me was how quickly the 'point' changed when I was personally testifying that I have not had this problem.

As far as the second point goes, I just don't get it. I would agree that your 'best' choice is antibiotic and hormone free meat (I am lucky that I raise my own lamb for the dogs) but, what meat products do you think goes into dog food kibble? THe meat or meat products that go into kibble is by far worse quality than what I am feeding my dogs. So, who is feeding the 'worse' product? At least I know for sure what meat my dogs are getting.

I was unsure and hesitant when I first switched all the dogs over to it. I waited for the 'sure' signs of bacteria etc. I think that is 'normal'. We have been told for so long that it would 'kill' our dogs. Well, all I can say is ,in my experience the difference (for the positive) that feeding raw made with my dogs would not allow me to go back to feeding kibble.

Yes, Tim you can get salmon oil in liquid. I get mine from a distribtor. The product name is Lakse Kronch. I think it is put out by Henne Pet Food in Denmark. It comes in a container that is 'air tight' so that when you pump it, air does not go back into the container. This is important as you do not want it to go rancid.

Ok I hate to say this, but it has made me nervous about feeding raw. A friend of mine is feeding her new puppy raw, as a continuation of the breeders program. She has had 3 incidents of bacterial infection in the puppy. She has started to grind her own meat and hasn't had a problem since, but it makes me nervous when the dogs spend a lot of time alone while we work. I don't want them to have a rapid onset of a bacterial problem when we aren't home to get them proper care. I haven't totaly discounted the possibility, but I am not sure about this. As we started to switch, one of my dogs quit eating anything if the raw was mixed in to his food.

I have weaned several litters on raw, brought up several of my dogs (from puppyhood) totally on raw and not had a problem. Well, I shouldn't be quite so quick to say that. My lastest addition had a bout of dirrereah once at the age of 9 months. It lasted 2 days. On the second day, my homeopath gave him a remedy and it worked instanstly. (Right before the remedy he had been eliminating ever 1/2 hr- 1hr. ) After the remedy, he did not have a bowel movement until the following day(evening) and it was perfectly formed again. During the whole time, he was still playful, hungry, and very active. Now, I know had I gone the 'traditional' route of vet care, my allopath vet would have prescribed antibiotics. I did not want this. Antibiotics also play a big role in deterioted health and unhealthy immune systems. In fact, antibiotics puts the immune system to sleep for close to 6 months.

Healthy pups/dogs bodies deal with the infections for the most part. (by the way , I am not saying that antibiotics are 'evil', they do have a place but they are far overused).

What did your freind do when her pup had the infection?

The actual 'switching' part is the most stressful for you and your dog. Some dogs deal real well with it and never show any adverse effects (detox etc) . Others go through a rough time and get and look sick. THis can be very normal. A lot depends on the health of your dog , the age of your dog and all the treatments your dog has had with various things. For instance, if your dog had been on antibitics, has been on heartworm meds, has been given flee treatments/pills, multi vaccines, combo vaccines (and the list goes on), it will likely go through a significant detox. You might see really bad skin/coat, bad breath, poor appetite, lethargic etc, etc. (Several good books on the topic really are worth the money!). If you can follow through, your dog will come out of it for the better!!

I am not sure how the puppy was treated. I know that after treatment and starting to grind her own meat she hasn't had the problem. This was not a dog that was being switched. It had always been on the raw diet.

With my dogs the diarreha was terrible and lasted for several days. I got lucky with the puppy and didn't have to work that day so I could stay home and clean her up.

Here is a link to the salmon oil (liquid) that I use. http://www.clubcanine.net/salmon-oil.htm

As well, I mentioned a vit/min supplement that is believed to be one of the 'best' on the market.

Here is the link to it: http://www.clubcanine.net/wolles.htm

(I hope it is O.K. to post those links?)

When you were switching your dogs food , did you do it slowly? THe 'rule of thunb' is that for ever year old your dog is , it should take a week to switch. So, for a 4 yr. old dog, it should take you 4 wks. to have it totally switched to raw. Now, of course, every dog is differnet.

Very slowly and we partially cooked some things to encourage him to eat. They have always had "extras" in their meals, just cooked. After a week of straight diarreha we gave it up. I am not sure if we will try it again. I know I can't work on the puppy until she is old enough to be out and have access to the doggie door.

I have been supplementing my dogs' kibble with raw foods for six months now. We have not had the diarrhea at all, except when I give them beef knuckle bones to chew on. They have had raw ground beef, turkey, and lamb, and beef stew meat, and most recently, chicken backs. This is generally mixed with a small amount of their regular kibble (Solid Gold), an egg, some grated vegetable or chopped apple, and if I have it, yogurt with live acidophilus. Never had a problem at all with their stools or skin/coat. Sometimes when I run out of dog food, I cook up some rice or oatmeal and add whatever protein and vegetables I have on hand as a quick meal without having to leave the house.
There was a time when I had switched Nutro due to supply issues, but the dogs both got really itchy and my Lab had an allergic reaction in his ears, so I switched back to the Solid Gold.
I'm not at all concerned about the antibiotics in raw meats, as I buy local hormone-free meats both for my dogs and my humans. It is something to think about, though, so I recommend going organic if you're concerned about it.
My biggest health concern with feeding BARF has to do with vitamin/mineral deficiencies. I have heard of this happening to people who aren't completely sure about what they are doing, and I really don't want that to happen to either of my dogs. Also, the proportions of meat to vegetable have me a bit mystified. At this point, I just do what looks yummy (to a dog) and the dogs seem to like it. Whenever I feed my special mixture, my Lab carries his bowl around the house for hours after dinner. If anything, they are a bit overweight (only by a couple of pounds).

Just an FYI,
Many of the hormones used in animal production are both species specific and are not orally active. A good review of some of this information can be found in abstract form on PubMed (search for bST).

Antibiotic residues are likely to be found in most purchased meats. Many of these can be inactivated by cooking, some can not. Organic meats may also contain anitbiotic residues. For a meat to be considered organic they producer cannot use hormones or sub-theraputic/growth promotant antibiotics - they can however use theraputic (very high) doses to treat disease states in animals. Not all producers will necessarily follow proper withdrawal periods prior to slaughter.

Bacterial concerns:
E. coli is a normal inhabitant of the intestines of every mammal. There are only a few strains of E. coli that cause a pathogenic response. The most noted is the 0H157 strain which produces a shiga-like toxin. Acid resistant varieties (which means that they will survive passage through your stomach) are common place in the hind gut of rumminants fed a highly concentrated grain based diet. These levels can be dramatically reduced if these animals are fed only hay for a few days prior to slaughter (see an article in Science 1998 or 1999 (i can't recall) two of the authors were T. Callaway and J. Russell). Thorough washing of the surface of the meat will greatly reduce the possibility of a problem, additionally you should avoid buying ground beef processed off site(unless it has been irradiated).
Samonella is not normally a problem for dogs, but again thorough washing of poultry will greatly reduce their numbers.
Low temperature freezing is also an excellent way to reduce the viable bacterial count on meat or poultry, just remember to thaw under cold running water (cold temperature will retard bacterial growth, cool running water will thaw frozen food faster than hot stagnant water or hot air.

As with any raw meat, safe handling practices are important to protect your health. While the dogs GI tract is fairly resilient to these bugs yours is not.